Carb Rebuild

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mkjj123

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Ok, first off I want to apologize for yet another question on setting pop off pressure on a Mikuni carb. I've searched this forum and many other places and can't seem to find consistent data. So hopefully I don't annoy anyone by raising this question again.

BN38 carbs from 1995 GTX. Has 1.5 needle with gold spring. The Mikuni doc says 55 psi for the 1.5 needle valve with gold spring. The carbreference doc on seadoosource indicates 19-35. I did the test with the new spring and it pops off around 20-22 psi. I have NOT yet tested pop off pressure with the original spring.

Am I misreading something or are these two very different specifications for the same thing?

I've read numerous places that if the original spring appears in good condition that it is best to reuse it. Is this just asking for trouble or is this the best route? Would it be visibly obvious if it wasn't in good condition?

Thanks, and again, apologies for raising this topic again.


Michael
 
The mikuni carbs are made for a variety of applications, personally I have always used the settings from seadoosource, which I think are specific for Seadoo applications. 22-25 sounds good to me, because its better to be on the lower side than the higher, so I would leave things as they are.

Lou
 
Use either the seadoosource doc. or better yet the seadoo manual specific to your model. Like Lou said, the Mikuni numbers are general and not application specific.
 
Lou and summer are both right.


But, I'm a little confused on why you are looking at the gold spring?? I don't think ANY seadoo's use the 115g springs. AND... from your own quote, the pop-off would be around 55 psi. Spec for your ski is round 20 to 35 psi. I generally try to hit mid spec, and that would be the silver spring, if I was installing a new spring. (but I find black springs in most of those carbs)


With all that said... the spring color is only good if using actual OEM mikuni springs. I have found that all the aftermarket springs suck, and won't pop at the "Specs". SO... if you use them, you have to check the free length, and actual pop.
 
yep what he said. SDS docs are good, but I have found a few mistakes so if you are having problems its worth pulling up the manual and checking a specific setting.

I personally never change a spring unless its bent or heavily corroded.
 
The color(ie:spring rate in grams) of your spring and fuel metering seat orifice are important to know when setting the desired pop-off pressure, modified springs often cause inconsistent pop results.

First, you need to know your desired pop and then select the components accordingly from this application table:
 

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  • Mikuni BN Spring Pop-Off Calibration.jpg
    Mikuni BN Spring Pop-Off Calibration.jpg
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Thanks for the responses.

I'm using OEM rebuild kit. There are two springs included; one gold and one silver. The sliver is about a 16th longer than the gold. The carbs had the gold in them, and I don't believe have ever been rebuilt. So, it's definitely gold, not silver or black, and pops off around 20-22, not 55 as the spec says. Now, due to missing parts (the two plastic check valves are missing from both kits) and incorrect parts list/diagram (I think part #3 is described as 'o-ring'), I'm wondering if something is awry. ???
 
Thanks for the responses.

I'm using OEM rebuild kit. There are two springs included; one gold and one silver. The sliver is about a 16th longer than the gold. The carbs had the gold in them, and I don't believe have ever been rebuilt. So, it's definitely gold, not silver or black, and pops off around 20-22, not 55 as the spec says. Now, due to missing parts (the two plastic check valves are missing from both kits) and incorrect parts list/diagram (I think part #3 is described as 'o-ring'), I'm wondering if something is awry. ???

Okay, allow me to unload here comes an info dump: :)

An original gold spring will give you a pop in the 20psi area if used with a 2.3 or 2.5 seat, but you shouldn't see that low pop pressure release with a 1.5 seat.

Instead, an unmodified/undamaged gold spring with an 1.5 seat orifice should get you very close to 55psi pop-off. If the carb hasn't been rebuilt yet(original unmodified metering arm and spring), then I don't have any suggestion for why your pop occurs at 22psi with a gold spring and 1.5 seat orifice. What is your metering lever arm height, is it just a hair above the fuel chamber bottom? I drag a razor blade across the bottom and if necessary adjust the arm height (gently bend it) until the razor blade just snags the lever arm. If yes, then, if you press the lever arm against the spring fully to the bottom, it should clearly lift the needle off it's seat so that fuel can enter the chamber. Normally, engine vacuum pulls the rubber diaphragm into the chamber, which pushes the lever arm and opens the metering valve. If the metering valve doesn't open with the correct vacuum pressure, there will be a lack of fuel, or vice-versa, if the valve doesn't seal in the seat, there will be too much fuel. This is a fuel on demand design (demand is engine vacuum) and has most of it's effect at idle and low throttle position, when set up properly. I usually go for the low end of pop range, to avoid throttle lean spots (excessive fuel lag).

The missing check valves are made of a mylar plastic film which is cut from a large sheet and was rolled up in a roll at the plastics manufacturer, so they probably will have some natural curvature built into them, and you need to install them in the correct orientation(ie: not flipped upside down) else they may not seal well.

Sometimes people will unknowingly change the metering spring with the wrong one provided in the kit or while trying to measure pop, even modify the spring by cutting or stretching it, which can cause the wrong pop, or inconsistent pop at best. Any combination of the parts will give results close to those in the chart.

Anyway, the pop spec is defendant mostly on the airbox/flame arrestor design, some are more restrictive than others thus the pop is set accordingly. Aftermarket air filters will most likely require complete carburetor recalibration, running the engine at high loads without a flame arrestor can cause a lean-running condition and result in engine damage.

I'm pretty sure I haven't answered your question yet, but we can work through it with a little patience. First, double check you have the correct parts, if one is incorrect (such as the seat orifice) then the results will be incorrect, accordingly. Also, make sure your pop gauge is calibrated, could be it was dropped or damaged and reporting the wrong pressure.

Also, I prefer to use the original spring if possible, usually they are just fine unless someone has tried to modify them. Replacement springs can be a problem occasionally if they are low quality (for whatever reason).

This attached document is the instruction for installing the two missing fuel pump check valve disks:
 

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  • Mikuni SBN instructioncheckvalveinstalation.pdf
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Ok, so this is what I'm thinking. There are only two springs in the kit, one a bit longer and that one is definitely silver. I ASSUMED the other one was 'gold' since it was definitely different than the sliver one, however after further inspection (and a few other sets of eyes) it MAY actually be the dull sliver one. However this one still has a pop off pressure of 43 PSI according to the Mikuni manual (my test was about 20-22). I used the original spring in the second carb and will check the pressure with that one to see if it's similar to the first carb in which I used the new smaller spring.

One of the new springs is definitely silver, and as I mention above, it's a bit longer. Because of it's length, I'm expecting it to require MORE pressure for pop off. However Mikuni manual indicates that shiny silver is the lowest pop off pressure. Is my logic on it requiring more pressure incorrect? It's longer than the original springs which is another reason I'm not thinking it is the right one to use.

I'll report back once I check pressure with the original spring. They appear to be in good shape so I may just use them to be safe. However I'm going to be bothered by this until I can figure out what is what. :)


Thanks
 
Right, since your seat orifice is 1.5 and according to seadoosource the pop should be 19~35psi, the Mikuni 730-03030/BRP 270500242 65gr "dull" silver spring would yield a pop of ~32psi, within this range. So, how do you know if your "dull" silver spring is the silver 65 gram or "shiny?" silver 95 gram spring? The 65/80/115gr springs are all wound in the same direction, the 95gr silver spring is wound in the opposite direction.

I wouldn't be too worried if the actual result was a bit lower than 32psi, as long as it's in the range and most important, near the same hopefully within a couple psi between both carbs, you should be fine. I don't think you want a crazy number like less than 10, it will tend to flood easily, or too high like 55, it will lean bog off idle with flat throttle response. No slow pressure leak down, that can cause heat-soak flooding while the engine is shut down, due to slight fuel vapor pressure in the fuel tank.

And concerning length, I wouldn't necessarily agree that a longer spring will increase pop pressure unless the springs being compared also had the same diameter wire with the same turns/cm and tempered alloy. Two springs of equal length will not have the same tensioning characteristics if they are constructed differently, such as from a different alloy or wound with more turns/cm, it's best to not overthink this and just use the chart unless maybe your approach involves advanced performance tuning of a modified engine or something. Stock parts correctly identified, installed and tested work properly most every time, rare instances can occur where some tuning can improve throttle response but in most cases if the factory calibration doesn't run properly then there's some other problem, such as varnish/gum or corrosion in the bypass ports(pilot holes), a engine in poor mechanical condition, or an inward air leak/restriction elsewhere in the fuel system.

Mukuni BN Metering Springs:
95gr p/n 730-03027-T Silver, reverse wound
65gr 730-03030 dull silver (BRP 270500242, 65gr)
80gr 730-03033 black
115gr 730-03027 gold (BRP 270500428, 115gr)

Unrelated aside: Seadoo even has a 130gram metering spring listed elsewhere, and the 115 gram spring is used in the 1999~2005 Rotax 717 application.
 
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I didnt read all the replies but I just wanted to add these kits are universal and if memory serves me the springs in 951 BNI carbs are NOT supplied in the kit. not 100% sure, but I fall back to the SBN kits; they do not have the black spring in the kit needed for all 787s.

Thats the reason I always use the old springs unless bent or corroded.
 
Just to close this out, and thank everyone for their help, I used the original springs which had similar pop off results as the new ones.

Thanks for everyone's help. Overall not difficult to rebuild the carbs (although haven't installed and started it up yet, which will be the real test). Still waiting for engine to get back from SES.


Michael
 
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