When buying a boat, they give you options and I always assumed aluminum is the way to go, but often a painted and galvanized trailer costs more and comes with boat/trailer packages.
Which is better and why?
Which is better and why?
What are benefits of aluminum vs galvanized trailers?
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Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
I know this is an old thread... but this section doesn't get too much traffic.
First... SeaDooya... You can weld aluminum with a MIG. You just need to use 100% argon as you gas. It takes some practice, and it doesn't look pretty... but it's strong if done right.
Second... the trailer is what you want. An aluminum trailer is good to help keep fuel costs down. On a PWC trailer, it really doesn't make a difference as you may only be saving 50 to 100 Lbs.
A powered coated trailer looks nice. But if you want to keep it looking good... you need to wash it after each use. (even in fresh water) And forget using it in salt. After a year or two... the powder paint will start to flake off, and it will be rusty. AND... there is no way to stop it since the inside of the frame tubes are not painted. The rust will start there, and creep under the paint.
If you are using it in salt... Galvanized is really the only choice. It will be protected inside and out. It doesn't look as nice... but it's functional.
First... SeaDooya... You can weld aluminum with a MIG. You just need to use 100% argon as you gas. It takes some practice, and it doesn't look pretty... but it's strong if done right.
Second... the trailer is what you want. An aluminum trailer is good to help keep fuel costs down. On a PWC trailer, it really doesn't make a difference as you may only be saving 50 to 100 Lbs.
A powered coated trailer looks nice. But if you want to keep it looking good... you need to wash it after each use. (even in fresh water) And forget using it in salt. After a year or two... the powder paint will start to flake off, and it will be rusty. AND... there is no way to stop it since the inside of the frame tubes are not painted. The rust will start there, and creep under the paint.
If you are using it in salt... Galvanized is really the only choice. It will be protected inside and out. It doesn't look as nice... but it's functional.
right..just lazy to switch gas and wire...:ack:
Actually, to get off topic, sorta, I just bought a wire-feed mig welder with gas hookup just this afternoon. I was not aware that you could weld aluminum just by swapping the gas...I thought you had to use tig.
Good to hear, since I have several projects that I could use some aluminum welding on.:hurray:
Good to hear, since I have several projects that I could use some aluminum welding on.:hurray:
Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
The best way is to use a "Spool gun" on your MIG. But on the standard torch... If you switch to aluminum wire, it has a tendency of not feeding smooth, so make sure you have a Teflon liner in the cable going up to torch, and try to keep the cable as straight as possible. Also, as metioned... use 100% Argon. (not CO2 mix)
When I get to my shop tomorrow... I'll see what wire I was using. I tried a few different alloys, but I found one that worked the best in the MIG. And as I recall... it was the one that all the pros said was the hardest to use. (it was a 5000 series)
Just as an FYI... you can weld aluminum any way you want... even with an Oxy/act torch. (true welding, not that brazing rod stuff) But if you have a nice TIG... it makes life much easier.
Oh... and the aluminum has to be very clean, and you need to prep the surface with a stainless steel wire brush that has never been used other than for prepping aluminum. (has to do with removing free electrons)
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Interesting....Off topic, but very interesting.
I did not know any of this...
All this time I just thought you used TIG because for some reason it may have been hotter or something.
I can't wait to try it out.
I did not know any of this...
All this time I just thought you used TIG because for some reason it may have been hotter or something.
I can't wait to try it out.
Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
It's your thread... so it can head any direction you want. :cheers:
Sorry I forgot to look at the spool to get you the alloy. I'll do it today.
Anyway... The picture below was done with a 20 year old Campbell Hausfeld 150A MIG welder. (this was before I had my shop, and real tools
) As you can see... the welds are not as pretty as with a TIG... but they are totally functional. (the inlet/outlet, end housings, and brackets) This is the intercooler for that Honda I posted up a while ago.
Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
OK... the alloys were...
ER5356 for good penetration
ER4043 for thinner metal, and more control.
Unlike steel... you are not going to make a pool, and keep working the bead. You will feed the wire almost twice as fast, with high heat (current). also... it is a little bit of a leap of fath... but you will pull the trigger, and just start moving fast working small circles. (because you are feeding the wire faster.
If you try to feed the wire slow... it will just melt higher up the wire, like a fuse. (by the torch head) Get yourself a few scraps of aluminum to practice with. The welds on that intercooler were done after about 30 minutes of figuring out how to set up the welder. (But I had 20 years experience welding steel)
You will get it... just practice.
Oh... one last FYI... you can use 100% argon to weld steel, so you don't have to change the gas bottles back and forth. But in my MIG... when I do steel... I normally just use flux core wire without any shield gas. (I keep 100% argon on both my MIG and my TIG)
ER5356 for good penetration
ER4043 for thinner metal, and more control.
Unlike steel... you are not going to make a pool, and keep working the bead. You will feed the wire almost twice as fast, with high heat (current). also... it is a little bit of a leap of fath... but you will pull the trigger, and just start moving fast working small circles. (because you are feeding the wire faster.
If you try to feed the wire slow... it will just melt higher up the wire, like a fuse. (by the torch head) Get yourself a few scraps of aluminum to practice with. The welds on that intercooler were done after about 30 minutes of figuring out how to set up the welder. (But I had 20 years experience welding steel)
You will get it... just practice.
Oh... one last FYI... you can use 100% argon to weld steel, so you don't have to change the gas bottles back and forth. But in my MIG... when I do steel... I normally just use flux core wire without any shield gas. (I keep 100% argon on both my MIG and my TIG)
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I was wondering about the 100% Ar and swapping. Thanks for clearing that up. So why do they use the Ar/CO2 mix? cheaper, or is it easier to weld with?
Also, since we are talking about welding here...I have to do "something" to make my intake grate stay up. It is currently just dangling under the boat since the last trip out last season, the metal rod that connects it to the "weedless" cable and handle rusted and busted at the bolt that connects it to the grate.
Do you think pulling the two pieces back together and welding a thin rod along-side both would be strong enough to keep it up for a few seasons?
I never use the weedless. I just need all this to stay up and out of the way.
Or, could I weld the brass/Bronze or whatever material that gate is to itself at the hing and just bypass the weedless completely?
Also, since we are talking about welding here...I have to do "something" to make my intake grate stay up. It is currently just dangling under the boat since the last trip out last season, the metal rod that connects it to the "weedless" cable and handle rusted and busted at the bolt that connects it to the grate.
Do you think pulling the two pieces back together and welding a thin rod along-side both would be strong enough to keep it up for a few seasons?
I never use the weedless. I just need all this to stay up and out of the way.
Or, could I weld the brass/Bronze or whatever material that gate is to itself at the hing and just bypass the weedless completely?
Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
I'm not a certified welder... but over the years, I have found, and learned a few things...
Using a pure noble gas (such as argon) or an stable gas like Helium, work the best on non-ferrous metals. (now out comes the Chemist and Physicist in my schooling) those gases offer NO reactivity, and on aluminum, that is very important. (FYI, aluminum metal does not exist in nature, so you don't want it to turn back into boxite or alumina)
Using CO2, or a CO2 mix is very good for steel since it has carbon in it. Producing steel from iron uses oxygen and carbon in a furnace. So, if you use a CO2 mix... when you get to the heat/energy need to melt the steel... you also have enough energy to disassociate the CO2. The carbon will re-bond with the steel, closing off any open bonds, and blocking the O2. Then, the Argon will shield that reaction. Because of that, using a mix gas will allow for deeper penetration, and a more stable arc. But, unless you are trying to do structure welding (like iron beams in a building) this becomes a moot point. (feed the wire faster, and add more heat) also... if you are using a home style, 100a MIG, then here again... it doesn't mater, since you won't be doing more than 1/2" think steel, and will need to double pass.
As I was saying before... on my MIG... I use flux core on steel, and on my TIG... I always just use 100% argon. But... it's a 180A machine, so I just push the throttle harder to get the heat needed. (for penetration)
I'm going to go look at the parts explosion, and get back to you on this one. :cheers:
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Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
OK... if you truly don't want to fix it... and the base, and the grate are both aluminum... you can just weld them together. I'm assuming the hinge bolt is steel. Remove it. Then, position all the parts, and you can tack weld them. Then remove them from the boat, and finish welding. (add some small filler blocks between the mount and the grate for strength)
But... Personally... I hate when things don't work. I would just repair the issue. Not to mention... when you sell the boat, the next owner may want it to work, and if it's been welded solid... that can be a hit to the selling price.
But... Personally... I hate when things don't work. I would just repair the issue. Not to mention... when you sell the boat, the next owner may want it to work, and if it's been welded solid... that can be a hit to the selling price.
Aluminum weld characteristics
Although your right, aluminum or galvanized is a better choice in buying a trailer that will go into the water, it doesn't mean it's your only choice.
Your initial question about which is better between the two, painted or galvanized, well, they both are made of the same metal. Galvanized is a paint kind of coating. It's molten zinc that the metal is dipped into at the foundry but can also be applied to as a cold spray or in attachable anodes.
Zinc is also preferred in the salt water environment due to it's electrical attracting properties that causes galvanic corrsion between different metals, like between the bronze, aluminum and stainless material of a jet pump.
Like Dr. Honda said, aluminum welding is completely unlike welding steel. After spending some time as doing a venture in the late 90's as part owner of a fab shop, I can say that aluminum welders are artists. This was one of the hardest things I ever learned to do in my life. When I weld steel, using a MIG, I mostly used 40 wire with C25 as my shielding gas. With carbon steel, you don't have to be sandblasted clean. Just no oils etc. on it. If you use a fluxed core wire, you don't need the C25 gas. But, your weld has to be chipped and cleaned. Thats the pain. With the solid wire and C25, you can lay a continous line without stopping to chip and inspect, grind out and re-weld. You can see it as you move along. The purpose of the gas is simple, our ambient air, which contains "oxygen". Without that shielding gas, you'll globber and turn your metal black.
If you stick weld, most like to use the 7018 for it's nice weld. On clean steel, the flux will peel back and just fall off. But, if you got nasty metal to weld to, rusty or dirty... maybe a little paint on it, you'll probably want to use a 6011. That stick can burn through bout anything and still get you a bond.
Aluminum welding?????? A completly different story. Though, the MIG process is almost the same, there are differences. You should use argon as your shield. I have seen a few pros that can use the C25 but I'd switch to 100% argon. There are a few things in aluminum welding that can't be ignored. How clean your surface is, whether your inside or out. The heat setting due to the metal thickness and as always, wire speed. The reason I say inside or out is due to your gas flow meter settings. In carbon steel, you can flow more from the regulator without much affect to the end product. But, in welding aluminum, to much shielding gas will actually allow oxygen to be sucked in under the nozzle, like a venturi or votex type affect.
So,.......and to keep this thread from becoming one of my "books"... When going to do a trailer, I choose carbon steel trailers. Sometimes, I'll take in galvanized. The reason is pretty simple. You can protect the trailer yourself by coatings and maintenance.
First, Galvanized. If you get an old galvanized trailer you want that needs repair. Repair it like you would a regular carbon steel trailer, with one exception. Make sure you stay upwind of any smoke from welding or grinding since galvanized metal is more less nothing but carbon steel that has been hot dipped in zinc. The vapor/smoke from burning zinc is hazardous, so protect yourself if indoors or in direct contact with the smoke. Once you have your repairs made, you have to determine your coating to protect it. First, if the entire trailer is in bad shape and your going to do the whole thing, you will need to "pickle" it. Painting galvanized metal will peel unless you pickle it. You can do this by washing your metal down with vinegar. Once you wipe it well with vinegar (which should be after all your grinding and so forth is done), you can be ready to apply your coating.
If the Galvanized coating is still in good shape, you might think of touch up. In this case, only pickle the area your going to touch up. At almost any automotive shop or paint company, you can purchase spray on "cold galvanize" spray paint. I've used this and it works really well. If you have access to zinc paint, then it's even better. But, zinc paint usually comes as a powder and has to be mixed with a carrier liquid. Use the spray.
Aluminum?.... There is basically only one way to repair an aluminum trailer, which by far will outlast any trailer you could purchase, repair it by welding it the right way and make sure, you choose a welder very carefully. Many welders will say they can weld it, ..... but can they? Welders have pride, they can weld anything, or I learned, so we think. I'm still not that good at welding aluminum and actually, dont' really try anymore. I have a friend at a local fab shop that can do it for me, so why even bother.
If you had a weld seam break weld and you were limited, you can drill and bolt up a temp batch. I've done this but not with carbon. If you have to repair a break, use a piece of aluminum to do the repair. Why, it's just temp? Because carbon is harder than aluminum and with the vibrations, the carbon will eat away at the aluminum like a grinder till it weakens and breaks.
Sorry for the book but this was something I did for about 4 years and have some understanding on the basics of metallurgy.
:agree: totally here. You could use the C25 but for so many, it's just easier to ensure you got a good bond from the melding of the two metals. The argon has no carbon properties.
But, as I said in the previous response, outside the proper heat and speed setting, in my opinion, the next most important (and the determining fact of a good or bad weld) is the flow meter setting. Not enough, black soot and poor meld. Too much and you will create a vacuum under the nozzle and suck in oxygen.
To those who might have a little stick experience with carbon steel, you have the ability to understand but without actually doing it, it's like paiting a portrait, ...... You've got to practice a lot to get really good at it. The more experience a stick welder has, the more successful and faster they'll pick it up.:cheers:
I read the entire "book" and nothing mentioned about using 100% Ar with steel welding, pros or cons...
Pros and cons. Your wallet!.... That's about it.
There is no real difference between the two. If I could slight one of the other, the 100% argon would give you a better control. But, that same control would be achieved with the C25 if your an experienced welder.
With the 75% C02 and 25% argon, the cost is a lot lower. The object of the game, remove the oxygen from the welding area.
With aluminum, there is basically no choice, like Dr. Honda said, the cabon steel and carbon dioxide have some molecular properties that are the same, the element being carbon.
Boxite, the raw material of aluminum, which looks like red clay in the mining process, has no carbon qualities once it's formed.
I merged these couple comments together between me (seadoosnipe) and Scooper because it was about C25 and argon, not necessarily what to choose between aluminum or galvanized, but I thought the info was very informative.:cheers:
Although your right, aluminum or galvanized is a better choice in buying a trailer that will go into the water, it doesn't mean it's your only choice.
Your initial question about which is better between the two, painted or galvanized, well, they both are made of the same metal. Galvanized is a paint kind of coating. It's molten zinc that the metal is dipped into at the foundry but can also be applied to as a cold spray or in attachable anodes.
Zinc is also preferred in the salt water environment due to it's electrical attracting properties that causes galvanic corrsion between different metals, like between the bronze, aluminum and stainless material of a jet pump.
Like Dr. Honda said, aluminum welding is completely unlike welding steel. After spending some time as doing a venture in the late 90's as part owner of a fab shop, I can say that aluminum welders are artists. This was one of the hardest things I ever learned to do in my life. When I weld steel, using a MIG, I mostly used 40 wire with C25 as my shielding gas. With carbon steel, you don't have to be sandblasted clean. Just no oils etc. on it. If you use a fluxed core wire, you don't need the C25 gas. But, your weld has to be chipped and cleaned. Thats the pain. With the solid wire and C25, you can lay a continous line without stopping to chip and inspect, grind out and re-weld. You can see it as you move along. The purpose of the gas is simple, our ambient air, which contains "oxygen". Without that shielding gas, you'll globber and turn your metal black.
If you stick weld, most like to use the 7018 for it's nice weld. On clean steel, the flux will peel back and just fall off. But, if you got nasty metal to weld to, rusty or dirty... maybe a little paint on it, you'll probably want to use a 6011. That stick can burn through bout anything and still get you a bond.
Aluminum welding?????? A completly different story. Though, the MIG process is almost the same, there are differences. You should use argon as your shield. I have seen a few pros that can use the C25 but I'd switch to 100% argon. There are a few things in aluminum welding that can't be ignored. How clean your surface is, whether your inside or out. The heat setting due to the metal thickness and as always, wire speed. The reason I say inside or out is due to your gas flow meter settings. In carbon steel, you can flow more from the regulator without much affect to the end product. But, in welding aluminum, to much shielding gas will actually allow oxygen to be sucked in under the nozzle, like a venturi or votex type affect.
So,.......and to keep this thread from becoming one of my "books"... When going to do a trailer, I choose carbon steel trailers. Sometimes, I'll take in galvanized. The reason is pretty simple. You can protect the trailer yourself by coatings and maintenance.
First, Galvanized. If you get an old galvanized trailer you want that needs repair. Repair it like you would a regular carbon steel trailer, with one exception. Make sure you stay upwind of any smoke from welding or grinding since galvanized metal is more less nothing but carbon steel that has been hot dipped in zinc. The vapor/smoke from burning zinc is hazardous, so protect yourself if indoors or in direct contact with the smoke. Once you have your repairs made, you have to determine your coating to protect it. First, if the entire trailer is in bad shape and your going to do the whole thing, you will need to "pickle" it. Painting galvanized metal will peel unless you pickle it. You can do this by washing your metal down with vinegar. Once you wipe it well with vinegar (which should be after all your grinding and so forth is done), you can be ready to apply your coating.
If the Galvanized coating is still in good shape, you might think of touch up. In this case, only pickle the area your going to touch up. At almost any automotive shop or paint company, you can purchase spray on "cold galvanize" spray paint. I've used this and it works really well. If you have access to zinc paint, then it's even better. But, zinc paint usually comes as a powder and has to be mixed with a carrier liquid. Use the spray.
Aluminum?.... There is basically only one way to repair an aluminum trailer, which by far will outlast any trailer you could purchase, repair it by welding it the right way and make sure, you choose a welder very carefully. Many welders will say they can weld it, ..... but can they? Welders have pride, they can weld anything, or I learned, so we think. I'm still not that good at welding aluminum and actually, dont' really try anymore. I have a friend at a local fab shop that can do it for me, so why even bother.
If you had a weld seam break weld and you were limited, you can drill and bolt up a temp batch. I've done this but not with carbon. If you have to repair a break, use a piece of aluminum to do the repair. Why, it's just temp? Because carbon is harder than aluminum and with the vibrations, the carbon will eat away at the aluminum like a grinder till it weakens and breaks.
Sorry for the book but this was something I did for about 4 years and have some understanding on the basics of metallurgy.
:agree: totally here. You could use the C25 but for so many, it's just easier to ensure you got a good bond from the melding of the two metals. The argon has no carbon properties.
But, as I said in the previous response, outside the proper heat and speed setting, in my opinion, the next most important (and the determining fact of a good or bad weld) is the flow meter setting. Not enough, black soot and poor meld. Too much and you will create a vacuum under the nozzle and suck in oxygen.
To those who might have a little stick experience with carbon steel, you have the ability to understand but without actually doing it, it's like paiting a portrait, ...... You've got to practice a lot to get really good at it. The more experience a stick welder has, the more successful and faster they'll pick it up.:cheers:
I read the entire "book" and nothing mentioned about using 100% Ar with steel welding, pros or cons...
Pros and cons. Your wallet!.... That's about it.
There is no real difference between the two. If I could slight one of the other, the 100% argon would give you a better control. But, that same control would be achieved with the C25 if your an experienced welder.
With the 75% C02 and 25% argon, the cost is a lot lower. The object of the game, remove the oxygen from the welding area.
With aluminum, there is basically no choice, like Dr. Honda said, the cabon steel and carbon dioxide have some molecular properties that are the same, the element being carbon.
Boxite, the raw material of aluminum, which looks like red clay in the mining process, has no carbon qualities once it's formed.
I merged these couple comments together between me (seadoosnipe) and Scooper because it was about C25 and argon, not necessarily what to choose between aluminum or galvanized, but I thought the info was very informative.:cheers:
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Post #14?
Post #14 is a post that was written 90% by me. I merged the two because of Scoopers second question, the differences between C25 and Argon properties as a shielding gas in MIG welding.
Well, after rediscovering the thread, I realized I merged them under his username.
Scooper, if this is a problem for you, I can re-edit and seperated it all out. It doesn't bother me, as long as the info is available for everyones read.
You can PM me if you would like to comment, or comment here, your choice.:cheers:
Post #14 is a post that was written 90% by me. I merged the two because of Scoopers second question, the differences between C25 and Argon properties as a shielding gas in MIG welding.
Well, after rediscovering the thread, I realized I merged them under his username.
Scooper, if this is a problem for you, I can re-edit and seperated it all out. It doesn't bother me, as long as the info is available for everyones read.
You can PM me if you would like to comment, or comment here, your choice.:cheers:
custompartsguy
Well-Known Member
In lue of everything stated I always prefer aluminum, I dont buy steel unless I have to and then galvenized I do not like because of how they like to corroide, also welding on them I hate, the toxic fumes it gives off is nuts, I like al u min e um........always have and always will, I can mig weld but know nothing nor do I have a tig, I will either drill and bolt or take to someone, in my opinion aluminum lasts longer then plain steel or gal. Take a look at a 20 y/o gal trailer vs aluminum the aluminum still looks like mostly new except not shiny the gal will be all corroided out.......once again just my opinion on this!
onebadcav00
New Member
i have both, galvanized two place and a single aluminum, had to get the aluminum welded like 4 times. granted the double is a 2010 load rite and has not gone anywhere really yet but i think it will be better. steel will flex to a point and not brake for the most part. aluminum will just brake.
Well, since this thread was started, I have upgraded my welder, so pretty much anything discussed in this thread is possible with me at the current time.
I have also had to use my old flux-core to rebuild a chunk of my boat trailer during this time. Which, I am glad to say, is UGLY but holds up to freeway driving and launching the boat.
And MORE GLAD to say freeway driving is coming to an end, cuz we are moving much closer to the lake in the next few weeks!!! :hurray::hurray:
I have also had to use my old flux-core to rebuild a chunk of my boat trailer during this time. Which, I am glad to say, is UGLY but holds up to freeway driving and launching the boat.
And MORE GLAD to say freeway driving is coming to an end, cuz we are moving much closer to the lake in the next few weeks!!! :hurray::hurray:
mrhonda700xx
New Member
i like aluminium better..
you have to use a spool gun if youre welding aluminum with mig. I tried, wire is a bit soft so it doesnt go thru the cable as easy. maybe I just didnt play with it too much but it was anoying and I gave up on it. my welder doesnt accept spool gun so I never tried it again, and I dont even need to weld aluminum much. body on my work truck is made out of aluminum mostly and I wanted to fix few cracks.
I have seen guys that weld with tig a lot and damn it looks so nice. I dont think I will ever weld that good, Im decent with mig but tig is so clean!
I have seen guys that weld with tig a lot and damn it looks so nice. I dont think I will ever weld that good, Im decent with mig but tig is so clean!
Star_Burst
New Member
too mig weld aluminum is an expensive set up if u have questions pm me I went to school for 3 yrs for to major in welding! If your really gonna weld aluminum it is cheaper and wiser to use tig. Of course it will take more tallent and a stable hand.
Star_Burst
New Member
It's your thread... so it can head any direction you want. :cheers:
Sorry I forgot to look at the spool to get you the alloy. I'll do it today.
Anyway... The picture below was done with a 20 year old Campbell Hausfeld 150A MIG welder. (this was before I had my shop, and real tools
Not bad I have seen college instructors that cannot make their mig aluminum look that good ! props!
Dr Honda
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I try my best. :cheers:
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