1997 Seadoo XP trouble cranking / starting - RUNS GREAT!!!

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Spezi

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I made a video of the problem...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eycoBZ98DM

I can hold the start button, and it will not get past compression... I can jump from battery directly to starter, will not get past compression.

Tried 3 starters.. Same issue.

Sometimes, rarely, it will turn over from the first crank...

Once engine gets into momentum it has no problem sustaining turning it over till it cranks which is almost instant!


Its not the solenoid, because I can jump past it, does the same thing. I dont think its the starter, since I tried 3... I am confused...
 
nice video!

just b/c a battery reads 12v doesn't mean it's good, that 800 motor is notorious for doing exactly what yours is doing. it needs a really good, like new battery. have yours load tested at an auto parts store and if they tell you it's still ok but not excellent, you need a new one. I've seen new batteries that were bad too so age doesn't matter either.

you should hook up a car battery to it, I'll bet it cranks fine.

if not, check your wires and connections. sometimes they fail from the inside out from corrosion.
 
I replaced the wires due to them corroding... I also tried jumping straight from the battery to the starter and it didn't work...

Ok, I will try from car battery again tomorrow morning and let you all know the results.
 
Be sure the ground wire going to the starter area is clean and getting a good connection. Even just jumping from the battery to the starter direct won't turn the stater over if the ground going back to the battery, i just describe is corroded. You need good connections for the power to continue the flow and complete the circuit.

Karl
 
Well... I replaced the ground wire to the starter with a new one... and it is not corroded...

Should I take the ground wire and ground it somewhere else on the block, instead of at the starter?
 
Update...

Tried with car battery, no go..
I tried putting it on the current battery, and then I tried bypassing it and putting the possitive on one side of the starter solenoid and the ground on the starter... did same exact thing :-(

Its nothing internal, because when it starts, it ****ing RUNS!!!

Has anyone tried using a kickstart from a dirtbike on these things?
 
Starter has been rebuilt.. also tried 3 new ones.. same issue..

Flywheel alignment huh?

gonna check the manual on that and let you guys know :)
 
How can I tell if it isnt aligned? The grease fitting appears at the top...

EDIT:

Doing it real quick:

Screwdrivers in piston holes... turn engine over via flywheel...

checking it.. brb


Second edit... Back, and no, it is aligned...

I turn the engine over via flywheel with a rod in each hole.. 1 goes up, the other goes down.. and when they switch direction, they switch at the same time with no lag....
 
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NEW VIDEO... I have tried moving the flywheel in opposite direction, and it starts every time!!!

So, is this the timing of the flywheel???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVgxjVVJlEM


Update: I can rotate it about a half an inch rotation ccw and it will start right up too!

Corroded teeth on the flywheel?
 
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pull the magneto cover off, stud...you'll see a "notch" on the crank, where the flywheel is "loaded" on. Theres a woodruff key there, possible, the key is sheared.
 
First off that end of the engine is the PTO,(Power Take Off). The flywheel is on the other end of the engine. It seems like the starter or flywheel is the problem as the starter isn't engaging to flywheel and allow it to turn over. Turn it by hand is allowing the starter or flywheel to have teeth align up and allow the starter to enguage the flywheel and start. If the woodruff key on the flywheel was bad, the engine wouldn't be in "time" and it wouldn't turn over and start. It might backfire but not start. Pull the starter first and look at the teeth for any damage, they might be ground down at this point. It's on the flywheel end... After looking at the starter's teeth pull the flywheel cover and look at the flywheel teeth. I bet they are the main problem.

Karl
 
When you jumped it from the car, did you jump it directly to the internal battery so they are in parallel? Or did you disconnect the internal battery? I have had problems jumping from an external car battery with no internal battery. Issue was too much cable resistance and not enough voltage would get to the starter and couldn't start turning it over. Video looked similiar.
 
What I did was pull the wires out of the hood, and connect them to a car battery.. I used the clamps on jumper cables to hold the seadoo cables on the car battery...

It turned over every time reliably when I rotated the driveshaft counter clockwise half an inch to an inch until it was fully on the compression stroke...

Still does it, but I can get it to start every time, and have been taking it out on the water...

I also tuned the carbs and the oil so it was no longer running too rich, but perfect, and it is FAST :)

If I can just make it so I dont have to rotate the shaft to get it to turn over, that would be amazing :)

To pull the cover, I need to take the engine out, right? Since the front cover is connected to an engine mount.
 
No, you don't have to remove the engine. Remove the front engine bolt and then put something under the front part of the engine like a piece of wood to support it just a little above the normal height.
 
so how goes your start issue? curious !!
a friend o mine suggested thet you check the ground wires in the electric box
the ones that join at the igntion coil mount
the stock set up is a coarse screw thru the coil base into the plastic base of the box.
he had one do what you described, he took off the self tap screw and used a nut and bolt to secure the grounds to the coil base, make sure there clean and tight.
also, did you make sure that the surface of the starter were the ground cable attaches was clean?
just curious
mud
 
I took the ground off the starter, and went straight to the block... Still same issues..

Ground shouldnt have anything to do with it, UNLESS the ground from the start button is going bad, meaning you have to play a few times to get it to work !!! Great Idea.. I will check that out soon.

Also, you CAN jumpstart your batter, however you are not allowed to use anything over 10 amp push... (example, you can use a charger that chages with 2 amps, 4 amps, 6 amps) to boost your ski - if you use 10 or above you fry the MPEM...

The main thing with a car, is that it does not get jumpstarted while the car is RUNNING (because the alternator runs, and pushes a LOT of amps to the battery and raises the voltage usually above 14...)
 
Compression?

Have you checked compression. Do you think there is a possibility that it's greater than it should be. Anyone do any work on it since this started to occur.

It almost sounds like your timing is retarded. I used to do this to my HO 350. It made it hard to turn over but increased the horsepower once it started. But, the timing on the 787 is basically fixed, so I don't see how this can be the problem. Like timmyboy said, if the woodruff key is pushed, at an angle of a 1/2 degree, this could retard your timing but I'd figure after riding a bit, it would eventually spin off the key all together.

Rotating the engine back a half turn is giving your starter a head start before it hits the compression stroke. With it already beginning to wind up, it's able to push the compression over the top and make the start.

The bendix is normally not engaged to the flywheel except during the start sequence, so turning the shaft by hand, should have no affect to the starter. I also don't think the teeth of the flywheel or starter will have any affect.

The only thing I haven't seen is the compression test. If it were just the one starter, I'd say it's gettin old and losing it's power to torque up but you said you've tried three. If the problem is the starter turning slow, having a hard time making it over the curve of compression, I'd test the compression, see how high it is.
 
Well, the rotate trick no longer works.. I have to play with the button..

When I did jump from the battery, I went straight through the solenoid, and grounded at the battery I believe...

I'll try a compression test too :)
 
Jumping solenoid...

Spezi said:
Well, the rotate trick no longer works.. I have to play with the button..

When I did jump from the battery, I went straight through the solenoid, and grounded at the battery I believe...

I'll try a compression test too :)
Click to expand...


The compression idea is because you say you've tried 3 starters and jumped across the solenoid, same issue. Check the compression.

Also, remove the spark plugs and the grey plastic shaft guard on the PTO of the motor. Grab it and turn it by hand. How easy is it? Any resistance to it at all?.......
 
With no spark plugs in, you can rotate it freely with no problems!!!

Also, if you put 2 straws or whatever in there, 1 goes up, the other goes down... and they switch at exact same time !!

Compression is 145 or 150 on both cylinders !!!

Uploading video of the test now, it shows the starter dropping out...


EDIT VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqrxYwCoCh0
 
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Vids...

Sorry, I'm at work, company computers don't do vids. Compression sounds good. It's weird you have had 3 starter that all do the exact same thing.

You have the ground wire going to the starter's base and the batteries hot going to the positive side of the starter via the solenoid. When you try to start it, does either of those 2 wires get hot......?

That'll about do it from this end. Your problem sounds like a really strange one. I've gone through everything I can think of. The only thing not gone over is if your engine timing has some how become retarded. What I like about the 787 is that this is generally a fixed system. You can change the timing but you'd have to really try and do it. If you did not mess with any of these component parts, I don't see that happening.......:confused:
 
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