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2 strokes and the epa

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69boss

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Found out about this recently, from 2012. Sounds like no carbureted engines qualify and they talk about conversions to injected. It's possible sooner or later we will all be under the same rule. Is an injected conversion realistic?



" After Dec. 31 no one may operate a personal watercraft on Lake Mead and Lake Mohave that does not meet the 2006 emission standards set by EPA for the manufacture of two-stroke engines. A person operating a personal watercraft that meets the EPA 2006 emission standards through the use of direct-injection two-stroke or four-stroke engines, or the equivalent thereof, is not subject to this prohibition and will be allowed to operate the water craft.

Presently, the 2003 carbureted two-stroke motor ban applies only to personal watercraft: Jet-Skis, SeaDoos, WaveRunners, etc. However, the National Park Service is currently working to propose a rule to implement Lake Mead NRA’s 2002 Lake Management Plan. The plan, which went through an extensive public meeting and comment process, states the park’s management strategy of banning all two-stroke motors not meeting 2006 EPA guidelines for the manufacture of marine motors.

The purpose of the ban is to keep the lake and national park clean. Lake Mead supplies drinking water for millions of people in Las Vegas. Carbureted two-stroke engines have been shown to discharge as much as 25 percent of their fuel directly into lake waters. These emissions have the potential to harm water quality, people’s health and aquatic organisms. There is a 10-year phase-in of this PWC rule at Lake Mead NRA. The rule was announced in 2003. Enforcement will begin on Jan. 1 of 2013.

Those who do not know whether their vessel meets the 2006 EPA emission standards for two-stroke engines may contact the engine manufacturer or a servicing mechanic. The rule only applies to PWCs. However, the park’s 2002 Lake Management Plan states the park’s intent to ban all polluting two-stroke engines that do not meet 2006 EPA emissions standards in the future. The Lake Management Plan went through extensive public review that included public meetings and public comment periods. At this time, the park is moving forward to propose a rule to implement that management strategy. When the rule is proposed, the National Park Service will notify the public through the Federal Register and news releases to solicit comments on the proposed rule.

PWC owners have expressed an interest in modifying existing PWC engines to meet 2006 EPA emissions standards. Retrofit kits do exist. The intent of the rule is to remove highly polluting engines from the water. Retrofitting would meet the intent of the rule. "
 
Lake Whatcom is the same. No carb'd skis allowed. As far as a two stroke meeting 2006 EPA emissions, I don't think Seadoo made 2 stroke skis then. So I guess in a sense they are indirectly banning all 2 stroke skis.

I haven't seen any of that up here....yet.
 
With no new two strokes being made, this isn't really an ongoing issue.

What pisses me off is it singles out PWCs. I've seen more 2 stroke smoke belching outboards than PWCs...

Let's ban those.

2002 was the last year of the carb 951... That's now 13 years ago!
 
Many companies that make or have made 2-strokes are finding affordable 4-strokes just to remain competitive. Lawn mowers are a great example. Years ago a 4-stroke was VERY expensive, now they are common place and cheap.

Any company that has money and cares to remain in business have or will make the change over to 4-strokes.

Bottom line, the cons out-weigh the pros of the 2-strokes mainly from the EPA requirements. Hard to win against the government...
 
I use a 4 stroke weed whacker. It's electric start, and I have a brush trimmer, leaf blower, and edger attachment.

Works well. 1 oil change a year. It's like 1 cup of 10w30.

No mixing. That was too much hassle. It's quieter too.
 
The EPA should be ashamed of spreading false information just to get the ban imposed.

We all want good water quality and protect the environment but they are ridiculous...

So if you want the true facts the ban was originally proposed to include all two cycle engines PWC's and outboards due to pollution. Then the lobbyists for the big outboard engine manufacturers got involved and provided all of the science to back up the fact that the pollution from these engines does not pose a measurable risk to the environment and they found that in something like 24 hours there were not lingering levels of pollution or something to that matter. It has been a long time since I looked into this. So once the politicians and lobbyists were involved they compromised and to make them feel like they got what they wanted they targeted the group that had the least opposition the PWC's. By shear numbers there are many more outboards in the country and lakes than PWC's but we lost because we were the little guys.

They also stated that there was an extensive meeting and compromise process. That is what I said they compromised by allowing the outboards that outnumber the skis many to one but they have the backing of hunter, fisherman and outboard manufacturer backing.

They also state that "PWC owners have expressed an interest in modifying existing PWC engines to meet 2006 EPA emissions standards. Retrofit kits do exist. The intent of the rule is to remove highly polluting engines from the water. Retrofitting would meet the intent of the rule." Retrofit kits do exist? Name one..... I would like to know where they get their information and find it ironic to comply we can easily buy a retrofit kit that does not exist!

I am not sure why we as PWC owners are complaining as they banned ONLY us from the waters, made ore watercraft that we purchased legally unusable and devalued in these areas of the country and can retrofit them with kits that don't exist.

This should be a good reason to speak up and make a change but as usual we wont. Yes, this issue pisses me off.
 
I'm all for cleaner water / environment, but the ban went about it wrong. It feels more like a target to rid the lake of PWCs..

They should have banned the manufacture of two-stroke PWCs in 2004 or 2006, or whatever.

Then, through normal use, the number of two-strokes, in use, would fade over time, without pissing anyone off.

Let's face it guys, my 2002 sea-doos, no matter how well I treat them, are only two skis.

I'm sure 80% of SKI's made before 2000 are dead and gone to parts heaven...

And, let's also face it, if I was to buy something today, it wouldn't be a 14 year old ski/engine...
 
mikidymac, you hit the nail on the head. I didn't think there were retrofit kits either as I never saw one advertised anywhere. Having 3 carbed XP's I may have to sell and update to continue riding.

In our area they tried the same 2 cycle ban on Lake Roosevelt, [it is a huge impoundment that runs from Grand Coulee Dam to above the Canadian border, hundreds of miles]. It would have effected most of Eastern Washington. Only because it would have banned outboards it was stalled. Being as Washington is almost leading California in the tree hugger agenda I suspect it will come up again. I could go on for pages how the EPA has used questionable or outright false data to ban whatever was on the list for that week.
 
Why is it still an issue? No one has sold a 2 stroke ski for at least 10 years!

People need to.. Let it go... let it go... let it go...

the problem will correct its self in another 4-10 years.

in 10 years, let's be honest, will your XP still run? will you still ride it?

No one had to ban using 3 wheel ATVs... they were banned from manufacture.

Problem solved in a few years.
 
I don't think unsafe [read that as law suit] 3 wheelers compare to an ecology ban. Unless your saying all watercraft should be banned because they are unsafe. Who knows if they will still run, I don't and yes I will still ride it. Have been doing so since 1998. Some of us can't afford or justify 10k+ on a new somewhat equilavent 4 stroke. The Spark is a slower, cheaper replacement option but they weren't available and not sure if I would like it anyway.
 
There are a lot of critics for the EPA and CARB here in California in that they operate on their own agenda and basically answer to no agency or oversight. They are free to do what they want with no input from the public.

The smart thing to do would have been to ban production of any new 2 cycle watercraft including outboards form 20xx on. To ban them all together without grandfathering them in is ridiculous as they were perfectly legal and compliant when they were manufactured, bought and sold. If anything by banning them they haven made them worthless and should have been required to at least pay us for them like the "Cash for Clunkers" campaign.

I think the main thing to remember there is all PWC consumers got screwed on the deal because if in reality they wanted to protect the environment at all they would have included the oil spewing outboards too. I have seen almost every 2 cycle outboard smoke more than any of my skis.

Same can be said here in California for the Red and Green stickers where any 2 cycle motorcycle and some 4 stroke motorcycles made after 2002 are required to have a red sticker and can only be operated in the winter months. It is crazy science that the few motorcycles in the state registered for off road only contribute anything to the air pollution.
 
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No he's saying if you ban the production it would eventually faze the 2 stroke pwc out and the problem would fix itself. No need to ban them from lakes



96 XP800!
Keep the 2 strokes alive!
 
No he's saying if you ban the production it would eventually faze the 2 stroke pwc out and the problem would fix itself. No need to ban them from lakes



96 XP800!
Keep the 2 strokes alive!

That is correct.

And while 10k is a lot for a ski, there are hundreds of used 4 strokes around 4-6k used. In 10 years gook luck finding a running two stroke...

I love mine to death, but let's be honest, if they quit after another 6-10 years, I'll 1. Be extatic they ran that long, and 2. Looking to buy something that's not 25 years old lol
 
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Just like the light bulb phase out. You ban MAKING the item. Not using it. Your free to use all 2,000 of your stashed 100 watt bulbs as long as you want. They just don't make them any more. I moved to CFLs and am pleased with the electric bill.
 
I am not convinced they will all be gone in another 10 years. Look how much activity there is on this and other forums about the two stroke skis and even our beloved 1995-1999 XP/SPX's are almost 20 years old and going strong.

This year the low lake levels brought the two stroke skis out of the woodwork. I saw more 1990's skis on the lake this year than I have since the 1990's, they were everywhere from old TS 650's to GP 1300's.
 
I'll be surprised to see 2 strokes around much at all in 10 years, maybe even 5. I think they will be like the classic mustangs and stuff, restored and driven, but in small numbers

To be honest, I don't see many now.....
 
I'll still have my stuff, my kids already want to get their own X4's---hence my fleet building. I think these skis will still be there for a while yet. I for one couldn't afford a new 4 stroke or a used one at that fact. The Spark would probably be my only option. I do feel bad for you guys that are being forcefully "phased out" on the lakes, but if you ever want to ride with me the ocean is always open! Up here Spim I see a pretty even split on 2 stroke oldies vs the 4 sofa's.
 
we must have a lot of rich people down here lol, and we don't have any 2 stroke limits at least on my side of Florida

maybe its just that the 4 stroke's get out on the water more.

The active groups, like the Jetski Junkies, I see maybe 3 or 4 Two strokes out of 40-50 ski's (and i'm one of those but i'm fast enough to keep up with the leaders, for the most part)

SOFLA riders I think probably have half a dozen out of 115 ski's.

I personally can't understand how they can afford it, dam expensive....

everybody in my close knit ride group has more invested in a single ski than I have for two ski's on an aluminum trailer, but then again I bought mine right. One guy has more invested in mods than I do in both ski's, but he wears a helmet and can push the mid 80's or higher. (not my cup o tea)
 
While this forum is active with 2 stroke owners, I don't think that's an accurate indication that there are many in use.

I wonder if a Right To Know law from the PA fish Commish could tell me the number of 2 stroke vs. 4 stroke PWCs currently registered, on a yearly basis, for the past 10 years.

That would be fairly accurate count...
 
I think Lake Mead might be responsible for enhanced global climate change, and should be drained.

Global climate change is already taking it's revenge on Lake Mead, it is almost empty as it is. That's what it gets for banning 2 strokes, stupid lake thinking it is all big and stuff.
 
Yeah, I dunno if climate change is man made or natural, I do recall as a kid we used to have more snow here during winter. Could be just a cyclical phenomenon.

The scary part for me is some of our leaders making high level decisions about our future believe the planet is just 6,000 years old. Stop and think, how scary is that?

Okay back to Mead..... Does Las Vegas dump their sewage back into this impoundment?
 
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