Why do 4 tec blocks have thrust bearing failures?

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Steven Mace

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Ok guys, who is in the know? So many 4 tec blocks have the damaged thrust bearing area in the block. What's the go? They are all over ebay.. Engine sitting to far back and the jet shaft pushing the crank into the thrust area? Engine mounts getting soft?
They are a crap design the thrust area on the 4 tec. Only half a thrust bearing? Why not run a full one like a car engine..

Let me know your thoughts. Don't want it happening again to my ski.
 
An ah-ha moment! So, not a full bearing, eh? Sigh, that figures.....

I thought maybe your block suffered a ceramic thrust washer explosion, maybe not the case.

And yep, I vote for a full bearing if possible.

Crank thrust surface must always have the proper finish, else kaplooey, this is a common mistake.
http://www.stealth316.com/misc/clevite-crank-thrust-face.pdf

Does the crankshaft have an oil galley leading to the splines? I heard the 4-tec engine can't be started while the driveshaft is removed, else oil shoots all over the place?
 
I picked up c-kits block last night and his thrust bearing was melted into the block. It had got that hot that the steel backing on the thrust washer has melted into the block! I'll take a pic.
 
I think the crankshaft is sticking to the bearing shell from lack of oil film, but I never worked on a 4-tec and didn't know 4-tec has this problem so I'm guessing:

"Conventional thrust bearings are made by incorporating flanges, at the ends of a radial journal bearing. This provides ease in assembly and has been used successfully for many years. Either teardrop or through grooves on the flange, face and wedge shaped ramps at each parting line allow oil to enter between the shaft and bearing surfaces. However, the surface of the shaft, as well as the vast majority of bearing surfaces, are flat. This flatness makes it more difficult to create and maintain an oil film. As an example; if two gauge blocks have a thin film of oil on them, and are pressed together with a twisting action, the blocks will stick together. This is similar to what happens when a thrust load is applied to the end of a crankshaft and oil squeezes out from between the shaft and bearing surfaces. If that load is excessive, the oil film collapses and the surfaces want to stick together resulting in a wiping action and bearing failure. For this reason, many heavy-duty diesel engines use separate thrust washers with a contoured face to enable them to support higher thrust loads. These thrust washers either have multiple tapered ramps and relatively small flat pads, or they have curved surfaces that follow a sine-wave contour around their circumference."
 
I'm curious if you have more pics of the damaged bearings?

I would probably consider using main studs instead instead of bolts, it you can locate the correct ones. I just prefer studs b/c I believe they do a better job of clamping the caps without allowing as much moving around under load. It might make a difference, bottoming the stud into the block as long as the alignment isn't messed up.
 
Oh we don't like green hulk hey.. I'll cut and post..
Mike "Lost mine to a loose prop, pushed the driveshaft back and there ya go"

Slow 91 "pretty much the only thing that can cause a thrust failure is force on the crankshaft. I have seen it mostly due to props coming loose, broken motor mount. I also have seen people replacing all motor mounts, getting the alignment correct but not realizing the motor is too far back causing constant pressure from the driveshaft."

Candoopro "A major cause is the fact that they had a typo in the service manuals for the torque value for the impeller. The 2003 manual had the torque as 92 ft lbs, which is correct. The 2004 and 2005 manuals dropped it to 59 ft lbs, which is insanely low. They corrected it in the 2006 manual back to 92 ft lbs."

Pete "How far back is to far back?? I have just done the alignment in my 10' TX putting the engine all the way back as people with this model seem to get light pressure on carbon seals resulting in slight leaks. I have less than 1/4" of float on the drive shaft"

Now I'm waiting for them to answer Pete. Good question tho
 
I dunno, lose prop is a bit much for me to swallow, so everybody with a toasted thrust has a lose prop? Doesn't engine torque tend to tighten the prop on the pump shaft? I'd keep looking, just in case.

Is there an oil galley in the crankshaft that leads oil to the splines? I heard of something like this, can't run engine with drive shaft removed.

The reason I ask is b/c engine oil pressure might be building up in the splines and shoving the crank forward into the thrust bearing, seems like. Just asking you to look if this is true, I would be really surprised if they designed it this way but I have to ask b/c I can't go look at a crank myself and I don't know how they set up the splines exactly.

I could be barking up the wrong tree, wouldn't be the first time. Would appreciate an answer though.
 
I like your thinking. Your a cluey bloke. I haven't got the crank to check but I'm driving atm so I'll get back to you when I'm at work so I get paid to think about my ski hehe
 
Oh wait, sorry... My head was screwy. Yeah I guess engine torque doesn't travel through the impeller threads torque goes straight into the impeller splines. So yeah a lose prop can happen. And, that wold shove the drive shaft forward.

So maybe they're right, what I was thinking above is probably wrong.
 
well been looking around for about 2 hours now.. doesnt look like there is oil going into that spine area. there is a seal that is installed in the spline housing that looks like its just to keep shit from going into the engine if there is a failure of the spines. you cant run the engine with out the drive shaft because the PTO cover has a rubber boot and seal that runs on the drive shaft to keep oil in the engine. would be liike pulling your car engine harmonic balancer out of the front timing cover and starting it. shit would go every where. but check the pictures i found for food for thought.crank4.jpgcrank1.jpgcrank2.jpgcrank3.jpg

The drive shaft spline housing screws onto the crank.
 
Yeah, more I think about it those guys must be right about the lose impeller. Also I agree it's gonna be important to have some clearance space at the end of the drive shaft to keep from jamming the crankshaft into the thrust bearing so engine position is important too.

Thanks for teaching me this detail about the 4-tec.

Guarantee, shit would fly out of there when it's pumping oil, LOL. :)
 
Man I looked up Seadoo manuals website and in 2004 there is a technical update book on all the 2 strokes and 4 strokes up too 2004. How they go from 185 horse to 215hp. Then then there is another book under 2009 with how to get from 215hp to 255hp. All the parts updates, jets, shafts, all the interchangeable parts. Awesome read. Why they updated parts. If your bored for half a have a look. Even how to diagnose problems.
 
I used a small wd40 to stick into the driveshaft rubber hood piece to prevent oil from going everywhere when I was bench-testing my 4tec. It prevented me from an awful mess as I was picking out the correct heat exchanger for my project.
 
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