Water/ oil issues

[justinb]

Hi All

Some of you may be aware I have been rebuilding my ski, last issue I had was compression,sorted that out not so long ago with new rings.

I finally put everything back together,after a few turns of the button my seadoo gti 2002 717 started was running nicely for a a few times for about 10 seconds or so , I then connected it on to the hose pipe whilst running to keep it cool , from what I saw it was circulating it ,water was coming out the front side of the ski and at the back .

I ran it for about a min I then noticed by the exhaust manifold into the exhaust some water was coming out by the 4 alen key bolts .

I then turned the water off then a couple seconds later the ski.

I thought I did not tighten the bolts up of the exhaust on to manifold but they were rather tight .

Not know what the issue was I decide to take the exhaust and manifold off as I was concerned water would be going into the cylinder from the exhaust port.

After taking them both off I noticed a good amount of oil in the exhaust manifold and in the exhaust it's self .



Is this normal? How would oil have gone up to that point of my motor ?

I am now concerned has water gone Into the motor and how did oil get up there .

See some pictures ,what should I do ?

Thanks

 

[etemplet]

I don't know what you did to the ski so I won't diagnose just offer what I see and experience. I don't like the gasket you are using on the exhaust manifold as it looks to be the hard type. I don't use sealant on my gaskets but in your case I'd try something high temp. Check the surfaces. Those bolts don't pull down very hard and are prone to vibrating loose. Also check to see that the rubber mount bolt on the exhaust pipe is in place and the rubber isn't worn out. That's not likely your leak but it could be an issue later on.

Too much oil is a very subjective observation. I'd check the adjustment on the oil pump and also the cable. Did you lube down the pistons and cylinders as you installed the top end? If the engine was running fine I'd go with a wait and see attitude. Outside chance is a rotary valve chamber leak which isn't the end of the world. I like a lot of oil for break in. Good Luck !

 

[justinb]

I don't know what you did to the ski so I won't diagnose just offer what I see and experience. I don't like the gasket you are using on the exhaust manifold as it looks to be the hard type. I don't use sealant on my gaskets but in your case I'd try something high temp. Check the surfaces. Those bolts don't pull down very hard and are prone to vibrating loose. Also check to see that the rubber mount bolt on the exhaust pipe is in place and the rubber isn't worn out. That's not likely your leak but it could be an issue later on.

Too much oil is a very subjective observation. I'd check the adjustment on the oil pump and also the cable. Did you lube down the pistons and cylinders as you installed the top end? If the engine was running fine I'd go with a wait and see attitude. Outside chance is a rotary valve chamber leak which isn't the end of the world. I like a lot of oil for break in. Good Luck !

Hi Etemplet

So to be honest a couple of mistakes I did , that's actually the old gasket , I did not realize i never took it off , I had another one on top of that one ,that might be why it leaked,see attached the one I actually bought.

I may have put to much oil in the cylinder chambers, I probably squirted about 10 ml in each chamber and again by the rotary valve.

I wanted it lubed so no dry starts , I actually am running premix now

 

[etemplet]

Replace the gasket and run it.

 

[justinb]

Replace the gasket and run it.

So I replaced the gasket ,the water coming out the manifold has stopped so good news on that.

Not to sure about the oil though it ran for about a min smoked alot and then cut out , I pulled the plugs not sure if they fouling because oil is coming up the chamber

Or it's because I am using the oil ratio for breaking in a motor think it was 40.1

See attached picture of the spark plug is this normal,if not how is the oil getting to the top

The whole crank had new parts installed I even put some gasket seal on the seals

 

[etemplet]

Did you put it in the water and run it yet? That's the proof. You may be excessively rich with oil but I've known people to run the pump plus 40:1 premix. I run 80 or 100:1 on break-in and just started running 100:1 on my ski in addition to the oil injection. I find it helps with fuel issues when the ski is sitting. Don't read to much weird stuff into the initial start up. If it has a nice pop at idle and accelerates smoothly it's ready for the water test.

With regard to where the oil is coming from if you are worried about the seals I can offer this, If the ski is running it would take a massive oil leak to shut down the engine. It would hydolock after sitting for 2 weeks. My wife's ski will lock up after sitting 10 days and after we start the ski it runs fantastic. Even with that ski leaking the plugs look good and her still hauls azz. I don't ever worry about her ski having bearing issues as it gets plenty of oil. LOL

 

[etemplet]

So I replaced the gasket ,the water coming out the manifold has stopped so good news on that.

Not to sure about the oil though it ran for about a min smoked alot and then cut out , I pulled the plugs not sure if they fouling because oil is coming up the chamber

Or it's because I am using the oil ratio for breaking in a motor think it was 40.1

See attached picture of the spark plug is this normal,if not how is the oil getting to the top

The whole crank had new parts installed I even put some gasket seal on the seals

Smoked a lot. My wife's ski has a shut off valve for the rotary valve chamber. That ski can sit 1 year and not have issues starting but when it starts we fog 1/4 acre. I had a problem with a 951DI last year that had a lot of unburned clean oil on the head. The ski was very very lean due to a mistake I made with the rave solenoid.

Check for a lean condition. Good Luck !

 

[justinb]

Smoked a lot. My wife's ski has a shut off valve for the rotary valve chamber. That ski can sit 1 year and not have issues starting but when it starts we fog 1/4 acre. I had a problem with a 951DI last year that had a lot of unburned clean oil on the head. The ski was very very lean due to a mistake I made with the rave solenoid.

Check for a lean condition. Good Luck !

Hey


No I have not out it in waree yet , wanted to run it on tap for a couple of days make sure it runs for at least 2 min a time without dying .

Last thing I want is for it to die whilst out on a river lol

I will try find a place that's shallow for testing purposes.

I wanted to ask you know the pipe that runs from oil tank into engine by carb side should I have a oil filter on it ? Keeping in mind it's om premix

Also the rear of the motor where it feeds back out into the oil tank , I have my outlet nipple facing down ,the pipe runs under the motor down the centre and back up to the oil tank .

I have made these pipes clear so I can see the oil , since running it a few time I can say the return feed has not had oil do a full circle.

Should the oil be circulating in and back out the oil tank in a 2 minute cycle or does it take alot longer and actually running of the ski on water

 

[burtshaver2021]

Hey


No I have not out it in waree yet , wanted to run it on tap for a couple of days make sure it runs for at least 2 min a time without dying .

Last thing I want is for it to die whilst out on a river lol

I will try find a place that's shallow for testing purposes.

I wanted to ask you know the pipe that runs from oil tank into engine by carb side should I have a oil filter on it ? Keeping in mind it's om premix

Also the rear of the motor where it feeds back out into the oil tank , I have my outlet nipple facing down ,the pipe runs under the motor down the centre and back up to the oil tank .

I have made these pipes clear so I can see the oil , since running it a few time I can say the return feed has not had oil do a full circle.

Should the oil be circulating in and back out the oil tank in a 2 minute cycle or does it take alot longer and actually running of the ski on water

The oil does not circulate, that line that you are referring to that goes beneath the carb is to supply the rotary valve cavity. It will not use oil unless you have bad inner crank seals. It did not have an oil filter originally and does not require one. Do not run your machine on the hose for anymore than a minute at a time without letting it cool down in between or you will damage your carbon seal or carrier bearing, whatever set up it has.

 

[burtshaver2021]

Best thing you could do if you want to see it run before taking it out on the water is leave it on the trailer and back the trailer down a ramp into the water and then you can run it as long as you like.

 

[justinb]

Best thing you could do if you want to see it run before taking it out on the water is leave it on the trailer and back the trailer down a ramp into the water and then you can run it as long as you like.

Did not think of that lol , must it be in natural? Or in gear.

Thanks

 

[burtshaver2021]

Did not think of that lol , must it be in natural? Or in gear.

Thanks

No gears on them

 

[burtshaver2021]

Did not think of that lol , must it be in natural? Or in gear.

Thanks

Unless your speaking of the reverse gate? In which case you might as well put it on neutral

 

[justinb]

Unless your speaking of the reverse gate? In which case you might as well put it on neutral

Yeah referring to drive ,neutral or reverse, so neutral it is

 

[burtshaver2021]

Never thought, I haven’t ridden my GTI for awhile now so when you said gears i was confused but yes neutral. You have got me thinking now about gears on these. I wonder what kind of top speed we could get if a 3 speed transmission were bolted to one of these engines, lol. 1 down, 2 up.

 

[mikidymac]

You need to get it out on the water and run it. Running with no load is not going to help the rings break in, nothing good will come of it. Running it on the trailer is not good for the driveshaft seal/carbon seal.

Excessive oil is normal for a new engine, don't keep adding more it will start to burn off once you get it going with a load.

 

[burtshaver2021]

You need to get it out on the water and run it. Running with no load is not going to help the rings break in, nothing good will come of it. Running it on the trailer is not good for the driveshaft seal/carbon seal.

Excessive oil is normal for a new engine, don't keep adding more it will start to burn off once you get it going with a load.

sorry Justin, I hope you didn’t run it on the trailer yet. I was sure I had heard countless times that in the trailer backed into the lake would keep the carbon seal cooled but this is not true? @mikidymac ?

 

[justinb]

Hey Burtshaver

No I have not lol ,would of tired it this week end.


@ Mikidymac thanks,hopefully I was been paranoid

I will try find a shallow river to do this test I don't want to get stuck out there ,it happen when I broke it the first time lol

 

[burtshaver2021]

Hey Burtshaver

No I have not lol ,would of tired it this week end.


@ Mikidymac thanks,hopefully I was been paranoid

I will try find a shallow river to do this test I don't want to get stuck out there ,it happen when I broke it the first time lol

Not to shallow, 3’ or more of water

 

[mikidymac]

sorry Justin, I hope you didn’t run it on the trailer yet. I was sure I had heard countless times that in the trailer backed into the lake would keep the carbon seal cooled but this is not true? @mikidymac ?

Yes, with the trailer in the water it is fine.
I was speaking of it on dry land.

 

[justinb]

Hi All

Sorry been quite about this , whilst this was happing my starter packed up , ordered a one ,however I was going overseas on holiday.

I got back 2 weeks back fitted my new starter ,only for the electrical main harness plug to play up lol.( I recently put a thread on here about this)

Anyway managed to source a new connector locally, fixed that problem, decide to start it up check all was OK, ran fine for a few seconds.

Died would not start again so I checked the plugs they were covered on the electrode tip with oil.

Cleaned them off put it back in , started it ran for about 10 seconds put it off , a hour later started it up again ran it for another 10 seconds and died .

The idea was to then take it to the river and run it in water as Mikidymac suggested,however it died ,checked the plugs again covered in oil .

So the way I see it good idea I did not take it to river not keen on having the same issue.

Been reading some threads about similar issues like this it seems and correct me if wrong , either the inner bearing seals or seal on rotary value is leaking hence oil is filtering through to top of the head?

Is there any other reasons there is oil up in the head? As I stated at the start u did put some oil in each chamber of the crank case ,I thought I needed oil everywhere, I would of thought by now all the runs I have done has burnt it all out?

So thinking worse case it's a seal , I want to do a test but not sure if it can be done with oil in the cavity of the rotary valve chamber ?

I have disconnected the inlet hose below the rotary valve and the hose at the back below the exhaust, I have used a bicycle pump to blow as much of the oil out .

Plan it to put a pop off tester on one end and block the other end as see if it holds pressure before I open the motor


Can I do this if some oil is still in the casing or is there other tests I can do


Thanks open for suggestions

 

[burtshaver2021]

Yes, no need to take it to the river yet, not until it runs perfectly on the trailer for 20 seconds or more every time. I would highly doubt that leaking inner seals would cause it to stop running after 10 seconds each time, if it’s ran for 10 seconds then bad inner seals wouldn’t kill it from continuing to run. You can ground those plug wires and crank the engine over with the plugs out to see if oil shoots out plug holes, with the repeating symptom of running for 10 seconds and then dying I would give it running out of fuel a thought. Your sure it was genuine Mikuni? You tested pop off? Then tested to make sure it holds pressure through fuel inlet fitting? I believe 6 pounds but double check either manual or carb rebuild thread for pressure. Check that fuel pump diagram is holding 4 pounds? You seen fluid coming from the tiny holes in the throat of the carb, did you replace the fuel selector valve? Double check that venting valves and check valves are in correctly, one venting at 2 Ibs or so. Try running it off an auxiliary tank of premix and see what happens, or run a hose directly from fuel baffle to carb inlet and see if that makes a difference.

 

[justinb]

Yes, no need to take it to the river yet, not until it runs perfectly on the trailer for 20 seconds or more every time. I would highly doubt that leaking inner seals would cause it to stop running after 10 seconds each time, if it’s ran for 10 seconds then bad inner seals wouldn’t kill it from continuing to run. You can ground those plug wires and crank the engine over with the plugs out to see if oil shoots out plug holes, with the repeating symptom of running for 10 seconds and then dying I would give it running out of fuel a thought. Your sure it was genuine Mikuni? You tested pop off? Then tested to make sure it holds pressure through fuel inlet fitting? I believe 6 pounds but double check either manual or carb rebuild thread for pressure. Check that fuel pump diagram is holding 4 pounds? You seen fluid coming from the tiny holes in the throat of the carb, did you replace the fuel selector valve? Double check that venting valves and check valves are in correctly, one venting at 2 Ibs or so. Try running it off an auxiliary tank of premix and see what happens, or run a hose directly from fuel baffle to carb inlet and see if that makes a difference.

Hi Burt

Confident in the mikuni carb rebuild kit this was one of my first lessons lol

Pop off , hold of psi all checked and correct too . I will need to check if I can see ot hear fuel coming out the tiny holes in carb.

However what I normally do on a first start in awhile is poor a little fuel mix in carb just to get it started , surely if it's running as long as 10 to 15 seconds the little amount of fuel I poored down the carb would of burnt out and main fuel would be supplying it?

I should of said when I start it like above after stopping it from running the first time on clean plugs , the 2nd and 3rd start which I do say 10 minutes apart I don't pour fuel in I just press the button and it fires up , however this is when it dies on its own accord .

Then I check the plugs and this is where I see oil.

I have also done what u said start it with no plugs in no oil spurting out .

I have not touched anything to do with the fueling side valves etc .

I think I will try run a little fuel tank on its own and see what it does

Thanks

 

[burtshaver2021]

The tiny holes I’m referring to are just below the choke plate, they are part of the pilot circuit. You will see in Mikidymac’s carb rebuild thead, when you have had the jets out, you would have sprayed some carb cleaner in where the jets screw in, you would have had to put the low speed screw back in a turn or so, it was then when you were cleaning the carb that you would have looked to see the carb cleanjng fluid coming out those holes. I’m almost convinced your still having fuel issues. Did you change the selector valve and o ring in fuel strainer? Pressure test fuel system?

 

[justinb]

The tiny holes I’m referring to are just below the choke plate, they are part of the pilot circuit. You will see in Mikidymac’s carb rebuild thead, when you have had the jets out, you would have sprayed some carb cleaner in where the jets screw in, you would have had to put the low speed screw back in a turn or so, it was then when you were cleaning the carb that you would have looked to see the carb cleanjng fluid coming out those holes. I’m almost convinced your still having fuel issues. Did you change the selector valve and o ring in fuel strainer? Pressure test fuel system?

I can confirm when I cleaned it out when I sprayed carb cleaner out the main ports I saw build come our easily out those holes you referring too.

See attached all the red dots is parts I replaced when I did the carb rebuild

What is the selector valve?