New to me as-is 1995 SP - Worth it?

[mashenden]

... I just ordered one from SES yesterday, when you click on the "Buy Now" it comes up $50 cheaper, and then they email you the free shipping label. It's about a $200 savings. Give them a call to make sure, I did it for a 787.

That is a great deal. $900 to include shipping both directions is less than SBTs price by $400+, and it seems SES uses better quality parts - no brainer.

Unfortunately, their current deal for a 587 rebuild is not as easy of a decision. I want to go with SES for the better quality parts, but the deal they are quoting me includes shipping only in one direction for $799 (premium). That's $100 more than SBTs premium price and $300 more than SBTs standard price. Now I don't know what to do.

 

[kicker]

Why no shipping both ways, I ordered yesterday and got the shipping labels this morning???

What is SBT shipping? One way as well?

If it was me, for that ski, I would not spend the extra on a premium rebuild.

I think if you look after it (proper oil, winterizing etc) it will be plenty for what you are expecting from your ski as a starter and should last many years. Its not as high performance as the bigger 787 and 951's. Performance wise there will be no difference.

I am not an expert, these are just my opinions based on the knowledge I do have and what I think you want out of your ski.

Good Luck........................ tough decisions.

 

[Minnetonka4me]

Not at all go SBT. On low HP motors you just dont have the side loads that make those cheaper bearings fail.

Dont do premium either. If they did it right and you dont make any mistakes there is NO reason it shouldnt last two years.

 

[mashenden]

Thank you kicker and Minnetonka for all of the advise. I agree that the premium is not necessary on a low HP ski, but an extra year warranty seems worth $100 (at SES), with the better quality parts being gravy. But in comparing to SBT's standard pricing, we are really talking a $300 difference (or probably $250 since I think I have to pay shipping both ways with them). The last two questions (hopefully) that should help me decide...

SBT's solution would be a different motor. Are the motors close enough in specs where a different engine would not need aligned as long as I do not move the mount and shims?

I'm thinking about asking SES for a quote on a cam and pistons, with the idea being it should be cheaper overall, since I would be doing more of the labor and shipping would be less. If the cam came with all new parts and pistons installed, are there any tools needed to put it in? I realize I would also need a full gasket kit.

 

[Jetskigoodies]

No matter what motor you get as soon as you pull the motor out you will need to align it.

 

[kicker]

The amount of money you would save would be minimal and you would also loose the warranty. Crank and top end kit with gaskets will be around $550. Then the risk of doing something wrong.

If your up to the challenge then yes you can save $150-250.

 

[kicker]

No matter what motor you get as soon as you pull the motor out you will need to align it.

JSG, if the same core is being used on the same mounts, what would change that it would need a realignment? Just curious what happens.

 

[Bills86e]

Over time, the hull pitch & yawl changes. Only an alignment tool can make the shimming of the engine and drive true again with the least amount of effort. A mis-aligned engine-drive will soon erode the rear engine bearing and other parts of the drive as well.

Bills86e

 

[Rick100]

I used SES to rebuild my 787 jet boat engine. Took way longer than promised and the engine I got back was an older version of the 787. They pulled and replaced the pto and flywheel but failed to torque the pto when they put it back on. I discovered this after I had installed the engine and jet pump and made all the adjustments. When rotating the engine by hand at the pto the damn thing was loose. So now I will need to buy the tools and pull the starter and pump to properly install the pto. My other thought is to leave it alone and let the chips fall where they may cause it does have a 2 year on their work. The way the engine turns it will tend to tighten the pto up rather than spin it off. I probably should call
tom and see what he has to say. Rick

 

[Minnetonka4me]

Rick you can put a rope down the PTO cyl, and tighten it with a chain wrench. No disassembly required.

OP; you'll need an alignment tool and a good flywheel puller. A good set of Allen sockets of different lengths doesnt hurt either. If you dont plan on doing a few seadoos find a guy locally off CL that works on them. They should be able to align in 30mins or less.

 

[Rick100]

Rick you can put a rope down the PTO cyl, and tighten it with a chain wrench. No disassembly required.

OP; you'll need an alignment tool and a good flywheel puller. A good set of Allen sockets of different lengths doesnt hurt either. If you dont plan on doing a few seadoos find a guy locally off CL that works on them. They should be able to align in 30mins or less.

Great idea -- getting old and the brain is slowing down. Thank you very much. Rick

 

[mashenden]

OK, I think I've made a decision (huh, I kinda thought there would be trumpets sounding, or angels rejoicing).

To recap, SBTs Premium price for a 587 is $200 more than their Standard, and their Premium really only includes an additional year's warranty and the gaskets, so SDTs Premium did not seem worth it. Their Standard is very tempting at $495, but it requires adding shipping both ways, a gasket kit, and rotary valve. When comparing SES's pricing there is only $100 difference between Standard and Premium and theirs includes the additional year's warranty, the gaskets, an RV as well as upgraded parts that are probably overkill for this engine, but made in the good ole USA. SES's $100 difference between Standard and Premium to get quite a bit more meant their Standard option was not worth considering. So it came down to deciding between SBT's Standard or SES's Premium.

Once adding the gaskets, rotary valve, and round trip shipping, SBT's Standard was about $200 less than SES's Premium. Still not a clear winner, so I thought about it some more, and more.... and even a bit more.

I figured that I needed to look at the incremental $200 as $100 for the 2nd year and $100 for better parts. For me, $100 to have peace of mind for a full 2 years was worth it, even though I would never want to use it. But $100 for better parts that were probably not needed on a low HP motor was harder to justify. SES would not budge on price - they would not throw in shipping both ways. Only on 787s or above.

Decision made (still no trumpets?!?!). I absolutely HATE the crap that China is dumping in this country. It seems stuff breaks in no time and we are being trained to accept that things should not last, all to get a "deal". I decided that even though a Standard from SBT would probably last just fine and that it was probably overkill to have the higher quality parts in the SES Premium, I'd be really pissed if something did go bad in year 2 of owning a SBT.

Bottom line, I feel better wasting $100 in America than saving money while perpetuating the sale of cheap-ass stuff from China. I'll be going with a SES Premium. (Ahhh, there are the trumpets).

 

[Minnetonka4me]

There you go...I wasnt following along very well but if its only $100 more I say go for it.

 

[Seadoobuddy]

Here you go.....




mmmm if you click on the pic they move about and play but no sound.

 

[mashenden]

There you go...I wasnt following along very well but if its only $100 more I say go for it.

Yeah, I got a bit wordy. It was $200 more of which I attribute $100 for the extra year of coverage (worth it IMHO), and $100 to being patriotic buying Made In The USA parts (also worth it).

Here you go.....

View attachment 17096

mmmm if you click on the pic they move about and play but no sound.

COOL!!!!

 

[Minnetonka4me]

LOL well the parts are prob still not from the USA, but at least the quality control will be a little better.

 

[ocod]

OK, I think I've made a decision (huh, I kinda though there would be trumpets sounding, or angels rejoicing).

To recap, SBTs Premium price for a 587 is $200 more than their Standard, and their Premium really only includes an additional year's warranty and the gaskets, so SDTs Premium did not seem worth it. Their Standard is very tempting at $495, but it requires adding shipping both ways, a gasket kit, and rotary valve. When comparing SES's pricing there is only $100 difference between Standard and Premium and theirs includes the additional year's warranty, the gaskets, an RV as well as upgraded parts that are probably overkill for this engine, but made in the good ole USA. SES's $100 difference between Standard and Premium to get quite a bit more meant their Standard option was not worth considering. So it came down to deciding between SBT's Standard or SES's Premium.

Once adding the gaskets, rotary valve, and round trip shipping, SBT's Standard was about $200 less than SES's Premium. Still not a clear winner, so I thought about it some more, and more.... and even a bit more.

I figured that I needed to look at the incremental $200 as $100 for the 2nd year and $100 for better parts. For me, $100 to have peace of mind for a full 2 years was worth it, even though I would never want to use it. But $100 for better parts that were probably not needed on a low HP motor was harder to justify. SES would not budge on price - they would not throw in shipping both ways. Only on 787s or above.

Decision made (still no trumpets?!?!). I absolutely HATE the crap that China is dumping in this country. It seems stuff breaks in no time and we are being trained to accept that things should not last, all to get a "deal". I decided that even though a Standard from SBT would probably last just fine and that it was probably overkill to have the higher quality parts in the SES Premium, I'd be really pissed if something did go bad in year 2 of owning a SBT.

Bottom line, I feel better wasting $100 in America than saving money while perpetuating the sale of cheap-ass stuff from China. I'll be going with a SES Premium. (Ahhh, there are the trumpets).

SES uses same parts SBT uses.
If you want non chinese parts, splurge for OEM or pro X

 

[Minnetonka4me]

No they dont...they prob use WSM. SBT has their own line of components.

WSM is china
Pro-x is Japan
OEM is Austria

 

[mashenden]

SES uses same parts SBT uses.

Then they must be lying on their website. Pics claim Made In USA bearings, improved piston rods (not sure from where), and specifically claim better cranks than SBT.

http://www.seadooengineshop.com/why-you-should-buy-from-s-e-s/

 

[mashenden]

LOL well the parts are prob still not from the USA, but at least the quality control will be a little better.

Yeah, you're probably right that not all is USA, but at least the bearings are. SBT's own line of parts is sourced from China.

 

[Minnetonka4me]

We never made very good bearings either...better than china, but Japan, Germany, and the swiss have us beat by a mile.

 

[ocod]

No they dont...they prob use WSM. SBT has their own line of components.

WSM is china
Pro-x is Japan
OEM is Austria

Yeah, you're probably right that not all is USA, but at least the bearings are. SBT's own line of parts is sourced from China.

I was under impression everything aftermarket at SBT/WCSS is WSM product or similar Chinese part.

Then they must be lying on their website. Pics claim Made In USA bearings, improved piston rods (not sure from where), and specifically claim better cranks than SBT.

http://www.seadooengineshop.com/why-you-should-buy-from-s-e-s/

Go to "Top End" section at the left of the page. Theres a picture of the WSM box.

I only commented b/c you were buying into sales of SES.
I was pointing out pistons VS improved crank bearing or connecting rods.

Either way SBT stands behind their engines regardless of fault.
So if the engine is going to blow its not going to be 2 yrs later.
But their pistons look a lot like WSM.......

SES has its communication issues but people seem happy.

Heres another option but they don't have a 2 yr No fault.
They do have good sales pitch against SBT though

http://www.fullboreonline.com/

 

[mashenden]

I was under impression everything aftermarket at SBT/WCSS is WSM product or similar Chinese part.

Go to "Top End" section at the left of the [SES] page Theres a picture of the WSM box. I only commented b/c you were buying into sales of SES. I was pointing out pistons VS improved crank bearing or connecting rods.

Either way SBT stands behind their engines regardless of fault. So if the engine is going to blow its not going to be 2 yrs later. But their pistons look a lot like WSM.......

SES has its communication issues but people seem happy.

Heres another option but they don't have a 2 yr No fault. They do have good sales pitch against SBT though

http://www.fullboreonline.com/

I had not considered Full Bore. Thank you.

I am pretty sure SBT uses their own line made in China, but I am sure there are exceptions where they use some other parts as well. I trust that SES use USA bearings. I like that because I believe they are better than those made in China (too many stories about bad bearings from China). While other bearings may be better than the US's, I did not see that as an option in any rebuild offers.

One thing in common is both SES and FB slam SBT's part quality. Stands to reason - lowest price = lowest quality.

Both SES and FB are similar in that they rebuild the actual motor and both use higher end parts. Alternately, SBT swaps for a different block. I like keeping mine (although I am not sure why). Swapping probably has a quicker turn around (or at least it should), but that is not a concern for me... its winter (although 70 degrees today).

FB was another $150 extra above SES's price, and with a standard "too much wiggle room" 2 year warranty, not "No fault". Not seeing any reason to go in that direction.

Then if you subscribe to SBT's position that aligning the engine is a requirement, and "by the way we sell the tool for $150", well now the prices between SBT and SES are only $50 apart.

I'm sticking to my decision... SES Premium because I can justify that if there is a price difference, then it is worth it for the extra year and extra quality parts (albeit some parts are Chinese made, dammit).

 

[Minnetonka4me]

The warranty is usually a mute point if the engine wasnt rebuilt right it shouldnt last very long.

I wouldnt put WSM parts wayy above SBT quality..pretty much similar.

I think your biggest difference is those american bearings, although then your crank rod bearings are your Chinese weak link then.

Theres no AWESOME way to do it though...Seadoo doesnt offer rebuilt 580 cranks anymore, and Im sure Pro-x and seadoo rods are prob double the price of WSM for a crank builder.

 

[racerxxx]

I had not considered Full Bore. Thank you.

I am pretty sure SBT uses their own line made in China, but I am sure there are exceptions where they use some other parts as well. I trust that SES use USA bearings. I like that because I believe they are better than those made in China (too many stories about bad bearings from China). While other bearings may be better than the US's, I did not see that as an option in any rebuild offers.

One thing in common is both SES and FB slam SBT's part quality. Stands to reason - lowest price = lowest quality.

Both SES and FB are similar in that they rebuild the actual motor and both use higher end parts. Alternately, SBT swaps for a different block. I like keeping mine (although I am not sure why). Swapping probably has a quicker turn around (or at least it should), but that is not a concern for me... its winter (although 70 degrees today).

FB was another $150 extra above SES's price, and with a standard "too much wiggle room" 2 year warranty, not "No fault". Not seeing any reason to go in that direction.

Then if you subscribe to SBT's position that aligning the engine is a requirement, and "by the way we sell the tool for $150", well now the prices between SBT and SES are only $50 apart.

I'm sticking to my decision... SES Premium because I can justify that if there is a price difference, then it is worth it for the extra year and extra quality parts (albeit some parts are Chinese made, dammit).

You do realize that you still need to realign the engine, right? You can't get around that, next thing you know you'll need a new PTO and a driveshaft at the end of the first season cause of mis-alignment wore out the splines on the shaft and PTO. You could always sell the alignment tool to a member here or on ebay or locally to partially recoup the cost of it. Just some food for thought.