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Less than 15 minutes--- DEAD IN THE WATER.. possible causes??

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J

Jonathan Lee

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Hi all--
My wife bought me a 2013 rxt x 260 yesterday for my early bday-- It is brand new out of the crate from the dealership-- We usually wouldn't buy new but they gave me 4 year warranty and bought it for 10788... It was a pretty smokin deal here in the San Diego area--

Onto the problem.. We put it in the water and cruised around for about 10 minutes in the no wake zone.. I dropped off my kid and decided to see what this thing could do.. I ran it for about 5 minutes and it shut down.. No overheating on the dash cluster-- I checked all fluids, totally fine.. I was just driving 18 mph and it shut off.. I fiddled around for about 45 mins trying to get it going.. It cranks, but no fire.. Tried both keys multiple times, no limp mode no nothing..finally had to get towed in by coast police... Im so upset..

Anybody have any knowledge on this-- I dropped it at the dealer--

Cheers--
Jon
 
Hi Jon, and welcome to the Seadoo forum.

You did the right thing, taking it back to the dealer. Probably a loose electrical connection, I would start looking at the battery.

Lou
 
Hi & welcome to the seadoo forum.

When you say "you took it to see what it will do"...did you follow the break in procedure correctly?

Was it prepped correctly at the dealer before you took it to the water?

whatever it is, good thing it's still under the warranty.
 
Other than a silly connection issue, back to the dealer for sure..

Are you aware of the need to pinch a specific hose when/of your ski is towed? If below 15mph you should be fine. If you exceed that and don't pinch the hose, you can push water through the exhaust and into the engine cause a hydraulics issue as well as a rust issue.
 
Thanks for the replies gents-- I read through the break in procedures.. I didnt even get a chance to break it in.. 10 mins of essentially idling and 5-7 mins of slow riding-- I went out to open water, then came back in and it just shut off.. Would it turn over if it was a battery issue? The motor turned, just seemed like no spark..Man I hope its just a dealer oops and they forgot to conmect something.. The dealership mentioned that there was a recall on the intercoolers that year.. I hope its not..
 
I hope that either you pinched the necessary hose or towed the ski very slow, as in under 10mph....if not, you damaged your brand new engine and may have destroyed it by cranking it
 
I was towed in at less than 5 mph. I was never told about a hose that i have to pinch.. Im looking it up now!----- Just read about the towing procedure.. I think Im safe as we were in a no wake 5mph or less zone.. That is really great to know about that hose though.. Im really glad I found this site..
 
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Jonathan Lee said:
I was towed in at less than 5 mph. I was never told about a hose that i have to pinch.. Im looking it up now!----- Just read about the towing procedure.. I think Im safe as we were in a no wake 5mph or less zone.. That is really great to know about that hose though.. Im really glad I found this site..
Click to expand...


Good! That means you didn't do any damage.

The hose we are referring to let's water in and runs it through the intercooler and exhuast system. Over 15mph there is enough pressure for this system to work. At 5mph there is not enough pressure for the water to make its way through the system, so you're safe. Clamping the hose while towing allows you to tow at a faster speed and preventing any water from getting into the engine when the exhaust fills up. Your best bet is to install an inline shut off valve on the hose
 
The fact that the engine turned over once you got to the ramp is an indicator that there is not water within the cylinders. Great learning oppertunity..
 
Thanks ya'll for your responses.. The dealer just called and said that when they plugged it into the cpu, everything was fine, but it wouldnt turn over.. The tech checked the compression and there is zero compression in the engine.. They are trying to figure out what happened, and Im trying to find a lemon law.. Less than 20 mins of run time, never throttled, dead.. It is obviously warrantied, but im not sure I want this turd..
Cheers..
 
Jonathan Lee said:
Thanks ya'll for your responses.. The dealer just called and said that when they plugged it into the cpu, everything was fine, but it wouldnt turn over.. The tech checked the compression and there is zero compression in the engine.. They are trying to figure out what happened, and Im trying to find a lemon law.. Less than 20 mins of run time, never throttled, dead.. It is obviously warrantied, but im not sure I want this turd..
Cheers..
Click to expand...

Maybe the timing chain snapped? That would cause a loss of compression and would crank but not fire, and it would throw a code for "cam phase sensor signal missing".

I know you said there are no codes but it may still be a possibility???
 
If the chain snapped, wouldn't all the valves close automatically? When I did work on this engine, when it was assembled I noticed that when the head was assembled, all the valves closed themselves. Aren't they also closed when the engine is not running? And if so, wouldn't that prevent at least most of the water from entering the engine if the exhaust was flooded by improper towing?
 
The valves remain in they're position (open or closed or anywhere in between) when the chain snaps because there is no longer a functional chain turning the camshaft.....the pistons then hit and bend the valves that remain open. Rotax designed these 4tecs so that when the engine shuts off, all valves are in the closed position, but this does not occur when the timing chain snaps unless you are EXTREMELY lucky.

But like I said, you would throw a code if the timing chain snapped.
 
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Though I have not opened up the 4-tech engine, I believe that the valves are mechanically driven. If this is the case, then no, the valves would not be closed. Some will be and some wont, it depends on where they fall on the lobes of the cam shaft. The chains only job is to keep the cam in time with the crank. The various components that operate off of the cam and crank do not care if there is a chain or not.
 
How effective are the closed valves at keeping exhaust moisture out during storage periods? I can't imagine a metal-metal seal being very air-tight without that detonation acting on the face of the valve.
 
Closed valves are pretty impressive. They are mated to seats and the seal well. Air is about as thin as it gets, especially compared to anything that has moisture, and the valves allow for 150 PSI. If they will stop and hold air, it will stop and hold water.

Long term is water builds up on the valves, they can rust and then lift the valve.
 
IDoSeaDoo said:
I noticed that when the head was assembled, all the valves closed themselves. Aren't they also closed when the engine is not running? And if so, wouldn't that prevent at least most of the water from entering the engine if the exhaust was flooded by improper towing?
Click to expand...


Good point....I'm not really sure how water gets into the cylinders when towed incorrectly, I just know that it does. Someone who knows more than I do will have to answer this question. Maybe the water is able to force the valve open slightly and enter the cylinder?
 
If the head is removed and sitting on a bench, then the valves (all of them) are closed assume that the rocker arm assembly has been removed. But,,, when it is on the engine and things are all bolted down, they will be open and closed depending on the cam, cam followeres, and the rocker arms.

Water gets into the engine when the ski is towed due to the force of the water entering the impeller area. It then gets PUSHED into the exhaust and then it flows to the top of the head and falls into the open valves. Which is exactly opposite the flow that the exhaust flow takes.

Here is video showing the head being removed. Around the 8min 30 second mark you will see him unbolt the rockers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ6DTNwaPSQ
 
UPDATE
...Talked to BRP on Friday as well as the dealership.. The Motor has 22 minutes on it. All three cylinders are registering zero psi.. Engine is toast.. They don't know what it could be at this point and I really don't want this machine. I am red in the face that I have got to put around on this machine for less than 20 mins and it has to have a new engine put in it..
Ive spoke to BRP and to no surprise they are simply aloof to any and all things customer based. Am I out of line not wanting this machine.. I don't feel that a new engine is a good thing.. I think its absolutely horrible that I have a brand new machine that I haven't even gotten to ride and its getting a new engine.. I want a new machine... UGH.
Any suggestions or secret numbers that anyone knows that I can call and actually speak to a rep that doesn't read a script after every question..SMH.
 
In most cases, the manufacturer has the right to make things "right"... Unless they are willing, I think you will have to accept a replacement engine. At the point you are right now, the lemon law doesn't even apply yet. Once you allow for a replacement, then you would likely have a stronger leg to stand on if you have additional issues in the future.
 
Coastiejoe said:
If the head is removed and sitting on a bench, then the valves (all of them) are closed assume that the rocker arm assembly has been removed. But,,, when it is on the engine and things are all bolted down, they will be open and closed depending on the cam, cam followeres, and the rocker arms.

Water gets into the engine when the ski is towed due to the force of the water entering the impeller area. It then gets PUSHED into the exhaust and then it flows to the top of the head and falls into the open valves. Which is exactly opposite the flow that the exhaust flow takes.

Here is video showing the head being removed. Around the 8min 30 second mark you will see him unbolt the rockers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ6DTNwaPSQ
Click to expand...


It is my understanding that Rotax designed this motor to have all valves closed when the engine is shut off....therefore I can only assume that the water that is being forced in from the pump area is under enough to pressure to push open the valves and get into the cylinder. Unless I am missing something, this is the only way that makes sense....
 
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TplusR said:
It is my understanding that Rotax designed this motor to have all valves closed when the engine is shut off....therefore I can only assume that the water that is being forced in from the pump area is under enough to pressure to push open the valves and get into the cylinder. Unless I am missing something, this is the only way that makes sense....
Click to expand...

Not true, to do what you suggest then the cam would have to be disconnected or removed from the engine for this to happen. Some intake and some exhaust valves are always open when the engine is stopped. This is one of the reasons for fogging during winterization as the moist environment from the water box extends up the exhaust pipe through the exhaust manifold and into the cylinder if that exhaust valve is open.
 
I'm pretty sure that when I finished my rebuild, before I put the exhaust mani on, I remember seeing all the exhaust valves nice and closed. Chain installed and cam all and head all assembled. I haven't installed the intake mani, so I'll check that when I get around to tinkering with the boat.
 
Tytan said:
Not true, to do what you suggest then the cam would have to be disconnected or removed from the engine for this to happen. Some intake and some exhaust valves are always open when the engine is stopped. This is one of the reasons for fogging during winterization as the moist environment from the water box extends up the exhaust pipe through the exhaust manifold and into the cylinder if that exhaust valve is open.
Click to expand...


Valve timing is designed so that when the motor is stopped, all 12 valves are closed. I did not make this up, it's a fact. Do a google search and you'll find info on it
 
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