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"Just-in-case" premixing ratio and oil type?

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scooper77515

freebie fixer
Premium Member
I have to admit, I have been reading a LOT lately of failed oiling systems.

I have a brand new motor, and this is the last 2-stroke I put in here. I want it to last a long time.

I am sure my oiling system is set up and working correctly, but I think I want to run a premix just in case.

Before I do it, I want to know if there is any concievable way premixing with a cheap oil would hurt the boat, other than fouling plugs more quickly.

Also, what ratio would be good?

I want to run cheap and easily accessible oil, probably that stuff from Quicksilver(?) at Academy or Walmart (it is at least a 2 hour drive to get to any of the Seadoo shops). And I would like it to be something easy, like 2 cups oil to each tank of gas, or something quick and easy to remember.

Any feedback would be appreciated.
 
dont they sell a block off plate to block the oil injection off?? i would use 4 oz. to a gallon of gas. that is 32 to 1 ratio. in my opinion, that is the perfect mix. i dont foul and no hesitation. i would not use quicksilver, only use sea doo oil in a sea doo man!!!! now a kawasaki, i run castor 927 pre mix (16 oz. bottle) to 5 gallons and never mix in the tank. always use a gas can to mix then pour into the tank. i do agree with you, i have lost a couple 2 strokes to faulty oil injection systems.
 
dont they sell a block off plate to block the oil injection off?? i would use 4 oz. to a gallon of gas. that is 32 to 1 ratio. in my opinion, that is the perfect mix. i dont foul and no hesitation. i would not use quicksilver, only use sea doo oil in a sea doo man!!!! now a kawasaki, i run castor 927 pre mix (16 oz. bottle) to 5 gallons and never mix in the tank. always use a gas can to mix then pour into the tank. i do agree with you, i have lost a couple 2 strokes to faulty oil injection systems.

I AGREE 32:1... I use AMSOIL...
 
I don't want the blockoff plate. I was thinking of adding this IN ADDITION TO the current injection system.

Are you guys talking 32:1 TOTAL, or in addition to what I have now?

I want to be able to dump a little into the tank, then fill it up with fuel and let it slosh itself around, if possible. This is on the boat, with 21 or so gallons of gas. I don't want to have to do 5 gallons at a time or haul around 4 5 gallon tanks.

Of course, the block off plate isn't completely out of the question...I will need to do a little research on that. Just for peace of mind.
 
Hmmmm....

Sorry to sound like a traitor, but I just did a google search and landed in another pwc forum and now I am REALLY scared of the oiling system.

It sounds like blockoff (or re-cycle oil back to tank and block hoses) and premixing is the way to go.

I was not aware that the blockoff plate is only $10.

Could someone give me the cliff's notes version of doing the blockoff? How much time will it take on the boat with reaching around and all that?
 
remove the 2-allen bolts, securing the oil pump on mag housing, remove the white plastic driveshaft, then install the block plate. You'll then, mount the 2-little black/red caps onto the barb fittings of the injection lines on the rv cover, finally, you'll install the big plastic cap on the bottom of the oil tank where the oil line with the inline filter was hooked to....

"customer", lost his mag cylinder to a plugged oil shooter.
 
"customer", lost his mag cylinder to a plugged oil shooter.

I have always been on the fence with oil injection. Normally when I buy a new watercraft... I trust the oil injection. When ever I buy a used ski... I almost always remove the oil injection.

On my Boat... I ran a little extra oil in the tank for almost the entire summer, until I knew the injection was working.

The reason I didn't automatically kill the oil injection on the seadoo's I own is because the oil tank still needs to be in the hull to lube the RV.

Also, on Seadooyas comment above.

GUYS.... this is exactly why you need to replace the oil filter every year, and change the small manifold lines every few years. A plugged squirter is very uncommon, but if you change the little lines, you wont be able to prime them if the squirter or check valve is plugged.
 
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I DONT WANNA LOSE MY MAG CYLINDER!!!:(

Especially from something so simple and cheap as a clogged line, or broken line.

The blockoff sounds like the way to go.

And the argument "you will use 3 times more oil"...I am sorry, using more oil is a GOOD thing! I know the cylinders are getting lubed.

In fact, if I could actually SEE the oil dropping in my tank between fuel fill-ups, I wouldn't be worrying about this in the first place.

But I don't recall EVER putting oil in the tank, even though I know I have, at least once.

I think I will do an experiment first. I will mark the oil tank, run a tank of gas, and see how much oil I consumed.

Can someone tell me approximately how much of a drop in oil I should expect after running off a full tank of gas? (I know, depends on how fast you are running, but I am looking "ballpark" here).
 
I have always been on the fence with oil injection. Normally when I buy a new watercraft... I trust the oil injection. When ever I buy a used ski... I almost always remove the oil injection.

On my Boat... I ran a little extra oil in the tank for almost the entire summer, until I knew the injection was working.

The reason I didn't automatically kill the oil injection on the seadoo's I own is because the oil tank still needs to be in the hull to lube the RV.

Also, on Seadooyas comment above.

GUYS.... this is exactly why you need to replace the oil filter every year, and change the small manifold lines every few years. A plugged squirter is very uncommon, but if you change the little lines, you wont be able to prime them if the squirter or check valve is plugged.

Honda, it was just plain out, disgusting, besides the fact that the piston shattered in who knows how many pieces, and took out the bottom lip of sleeve, thee entire cylinder, rave , head...etc, had NO SIGN of oil. After tearing it down, i used a real small allen to insert into squirters, the pto inserted like butter, no resistance, the mag, forgettaboutit, literally, need to put finger at bend of allen, and push to "break away", what was in there....since this came to my attention, i've been contemplating going premix. Found injection/premix oil at, of all places, Big Lots, they're blowing it out at 2-buks a qrt, meet/exceeds api-tc..etc standards....:hurray:
 
Can someone tell me approximately how much of a drop in oil I should expect after running off a full tank of gas? (I know, depends on how fast you are running, but I am looking "ballpark" here).

Not sure Scooper, but i would say that its about a 1-1/2 to 1 ratio..tank and a 1/2, to tank of oil. Think i'll spend the exra 10 buks per tank, which thats ALOT of gas, versus atleast a 600 repair bill?
 
So, I should be filling my oil tank around every other tank of gas?

I bet I am on 4 or 6 tanks of gas on half a tank of oil, at this time...:confused:
 
I do not have the detailed experience with 2stroke marine but I do know when you mix oil types in the tank dark jello develops, so when I offer to help a newcomer I always ask what oil did the previous owner use? Not sure then best thing is to get old clothes stuffed under the tank and pull the plug - these are used to get campfires going thru the season, I always start the season with 5 gallon of premix plus whatever my lawncare cans have leftover to watch the oil tank drop, then just gas and go, I do carry 3-4 bottles of premix in my glovebox when crossing the lake for canada, I use amsoil hp injector at about 36-1 by carrying a liter pop bottle with 4 handmade marks. I know I will have to use the interceptor when I get my 787 going and the gtx sold to keep the power valve flexing properly.
 
Luckily, Karl told me what oil he had been using and graciously sold me a bottle or two when I bought the boat. I have since used the same oil religiously, having encountered the jello in my jet ski after being erroneously told to use mineral oil by the guy at the seadoo shop.

I think I will be doing a premix on the first batch of gas this year and keep an eye on that oil tank and see if it drops. I may try to figure out how much oil was consumed and compare it to the amount of fuel consumed and see what ratio the oil is being used at (again, recognizing that more oil is injected at higher rpms, and this experiment will only net me an average).
 
Luckily, Karl told me what oil he had been using and graciously sold me a bottle or two when I bought the boat. I have since used the same oil religiously, having encountered the jello in my jet ski after being erroneously told to use mineral oil by the guy at the seadoo shop.

I think I will be doing a premix on the first batch of gas this year and keep an eye on that oil tank and see if it drops. I may try to figure out how much oil was consumed and compare it to the amount of fuel consumed and see what ratio the oil is being used at (again, recognizing that more oil is injected at higher rpms, and this experiment will only net me an average).


Nice thing about your boat... you know the last guy who owned it... and that he probably took care of it.

Anyway... at 40:1, you should be burning about 67 oz of oil for 21 gal. So... about 2 quarts of oil for a tank of fuel. (that means running almost to dry) And as I recall... the oil tank is +2 gallons. At idle, you will burn less oil, so... the lower your throttle settings, the less oil you will burn. I guess... if you were just idling around, or driving half throttle... you would burn about 15% less.

If you are like me... you aren't burning a full tank every time you go out... so in reallity... you can probably go out 5 or 6 times before needing to add to the oil tank.


Now... like I said... I was adding a little oil to almost every tank last year to be safe, but in a boat... going to pre-mix isn't an easy thing. Most of us will get lazy, and pour the oil into the tank. There is a good chance that it's not going to mix into the fuel until you go out and bounce around for a while, and you may run a little lean for a while. To go pre-mix, and not have any issues with it... you need to add a known amount of fuel to the boat. Then, mix a batch of "Mixed" fuel in a 5 gallon can with enough oil for the entire boat tank to make sure it's thoroughly mixed in.

On a sit down ski, it's not a big deal to mix into fuel jugs... but on a boat with a 21 gal tank... to do it totally right is a pain.


Pesonally... on the boat, I will keep the injector. (for now) I have never seen anyone say they had an injector pump fail. All failures are from other sources, and they can all be prevents with yearly inspection and maintenance.
 
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Last thing to think about.

All the guys talking about failing oil injection systems are people who can't tell you what oil they are using, they can't tell you the last time they changed the oil lines, or the filter, and the failure happens on a 15 year old ski. (or boat)

In realitly... it seems like good odds to me. Even if the injection system didn't fail... the engine was so old that it would have probably given up anyway.

If SeaDooya can come back and say that his customer's ski was only a few years old, and has had perfect maintenance, with only using the proper oil... then I will change my position on the injection system.


FYI... Yamaha's injector SUX. They flat out fail.
 
Well, I am DEFINITELY buying a gallon of oil, topping off the oil tank, and mixing 40:1 for the first tank this season. Then after I burn off a tank of gas, I will top off the oil tank and measure how much I used. Get a ratio of oil used from that.

I may smoke and foul plugs for the first tank, but it is worth it to me to verify that the injectors are working properly.
 
Scooper.....


Mix your tank 50:1. You won't foul plugs, and it's still enough oil to keep your engine alive. (about 2.6 oz/gal)

The oil tank thing is easy. When it's on the trailer, and somewhere of known angle (like where you park it in your driveway) Just wipe the tank clean, and make a line with a "Sharpie" Marker where the oil level is. Once you verify things are pumping... you can use alcohol to wipe the mark off the tank.

One question... I know you are a regular here... and you work on your boat... but, is there a reason to worry? Have you changed the filter and little lines?? If you did... did they refill? Like I said above... if you have a plug in the system... the oil isn't going to flow to refill the lines.
 
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The reason I worry? I bought the boat, and 5th or 6th trip out, blew up a piston. Spent months tracking down and installing a new engine. And now, for some odd reason, I am a bit timid about the 2-stroke.

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This engine is new, with less than 20 hours on it after last season, hoses are new, pump is new, I could use a new filter, as I have no idea when it was swapped.

But, I would like to get AT LEAST 50 hours out of this engine, and after reading about all the catastrophic failures, I don't want the next one to be mine.

If this engine goes, I am driving the entire heap to the dump, and giving up on it. $6500 down the drain. I can't even keep the trailer, it is shot and rusting from the inside out.

I figured if I bypassed the oiling system and premixed, there would be that one little thing I wouldn't have to worry about.
 
damn...looks like you sucked up a fish, got chewed up and went through the cooling system.....i've seen some sh**, but that takes it, bud....6 time out and it went?...that sux.
 
Yup... that's ugly.

Well... with anything, you can have issues, and I understand your frustrations. If you go pre-mix... you can have some peace of mind. That is... as long as you mix things properly.

I have never lost a 2-stoke from oil injection failure, but on most of my used skis... it comes off, and I change to pre-mix. Also... the kind of person I am... I'm always under the hood, and looking at things. For example. When the weather warmed up, and I pulled my boat out of the garage... I pulled the carbs off, and cleaned them out. The boat was running fine last year, and there was no need to do that... but I just wanted to give them a look over to make sure my first trip out will be a day of fun, and not frustration.

Then... on my '90 Si project ... I just changed the little lines before the last time that I took it out. The lines on it were not the originals. They were still soft and flexable... but I changed them anyway. That way, I knew that they were not plugged up.

If our SeaDoo engines didn't need an oil supply to lube the RV... I would yank the injection system out in a hart beat. But since it needs to be there... then I might as well do the maintenance to keep the system alive and in tact.
 
That engine looks yukky but don't all the failure engines upon initial teardown? As I mentioned earlier, I make about 5 gallons premix to use to verify the oil tank dropping with the folks that store skis and boats at my aunts barn near lake erie, it just seems to make sense to have oil when you first get started in the season, your first season ride is not gonna be a long one, just run around a half hour to be sure all the spider webs have left the hull, then you - well I take time like Honda and check around for leaks and such cause I know my kids will be riding when I am working back in the city and I don't want any phone messages about something silly and prolly most folks feel the same way, a little slow dancing before you go to for the long haul.
 
We live too far from water to only go out half an hour. It will be a day trip unless mechanical issues shorten it. Especially if i want to run off half a tank to compare to the oil tank.
 
What a thread....

This was not just a long thread, but a interesting one. There are a couple steps you can take to make sure your systems are in good shape, in this case, the oiling system.

I totally agree with Dr. Honda. The only engine I have ever premixed was my outboards, which called for premixing.

Premixing these engines, especially if your still using the injection system, can cause carbonizing. This can be just as bad as not running enough oil.

The biggest tell tale that your oil system is not working well is the spark plugs. Because I also own this boat, along with the 1997 GTX with the same engine, I carry tools with me and check my plugs real often. Yeah, I'm there to enjoy my day on the river but the way these motors are set up, it takes 3 minutes of my time to get satisfaction that my motor is performing well.

The oil injection system is more reliable than most other parts of your motor. There are 5 types of pumps used today, that I know of. Since school, they might have come out with more, but your oil pump is a simple "gear" type pump. It's directly geared to the crank shaft via the magneto and uses one drive gear. Most gear pumps use a power gear and an idle gear. The lubrication is from the oil that passes through the pump itself, on it's way to your injectors. This pump doesn't usually just go bad, it breaks. As long as your filter is keeping out grit, the pump should last forever. You can feel the pump during operation to see how warm it is. It should be warm, but not so hot you can't touch it.

To see that it's running correctly, you can also grab the cam and wind it wide open while at idle. The motor will begin to smoke like a mosquito truck. If you get that kind of smoke, the pump works fine.

Myself, when I have an engine down, I take the gear pump (oil) and connect it to my drill. I made a special piece that I connect to my drill, run in the counter rotating direction and watch it pump oil. It's a very reliable way to ensure you have a positive flow through the pump. The drill is not exactly a high rpm motor, so you won’t see it blowing out a stream of oil, but it will flow oil.

Looking at your pictures, it doesn’t look like a lack of oil caused the destruction of the piston. If you look closely, you’ll see the carbon and oil residue on the pistons and heads.

From just a first hand thought, I think you lost your piston to a bad crank bearing. It’s possible that you ingested something or one of the rollers flat spotted.

The spark plugs, which you don’t show, would have also showed us if it were due to a lack of oil. Back in 2007, this was one of the first engines I worked with, helping the previous owner (Kustomkarl). He asked many questions about the issues he was having and we worked together to solve his problems. I’m pretty sure he bought new parts to replace parts that were bad. But, if there was a flat spotted bearing, there would be no way he’d have known this.

If you have an engine stethoscope, you can listen to the bearings and with the trained ear, know when you have one that isn’t up to par. There is a rat-tat-tat kinda sound coming from the bearing. Roller bearings are easier to determine a problem with more-so than the 4 stroke journal bearings. With babbitted bearings, there isn’t a lot of leeway on determining a problem exists. You can hear the rattle of your crank on startup or you might notice a loss of oil pressure.

Test what you can, be vigilant in reading the spark plugs and take compression readings every so often and enjoy the season. Don’t be gun shy. Using premix when you know your injection system works is a waste of money and won’t stop you from blowing an engine. Running double oil will cause carbonizing and fouling plugs. It won’t protect you from blowing a motor……..

:cheers:
 
If SeaDooya can come back and say that his customer's ski was only a few years old, and has had perfect maintenance, with only using the proper oil... then I will change my position on the injection system.


.

2003 gti, "had' perfect maintenance, and seadoo synthetic....;)
 
I admit, I don't do "perfect" maintenance, and tend to wait for a symptom before I fix stuff (other than carb clean yearly, 2X year RAVE clean, filters, etc).

Sad thing is the "symptom" for failed squirters is a dead engine, in most cases.
 
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