HELP 2 Second Beep, 2 Second Pause 2000 Challenger 14.5' Boat Twin 717, NO START

[8675-30-9]

Well ya gotta love why you join forums. Only problems bring us here and excellent people help ansewer them. In my opinion.....that's awesome, I love these sites. Now, here's my problem....

Jet boat runs excellent when it does run, starts occasionally though. It seems when it is hot outside is when this RANDOM problem show up. To start: As i approach the boat I can hear a faint periodic beep, not sure what this is or even its frequency it so faint. So then I go to initiate my DESS key and literally the second it even gets close to the post it starts the 2 second beep, 2 second pause code very loudly, i then continue to place it on the post securely and NOTHING! not a beep, not a click, not a growl....NOTHING at all when i press either engine button. Yes, i am in Neutral. No matter what I do nothing changes, this includes moving shifter, pushing start buttons, initiating the self diagnostic procedure.....nothing happens. Battery is damn near new. However when it cools off outside I can get in the boat and it will fire right up!

I have taken this boat to my seadoo mechanic, he has scanned both engines and the engine codes and serial numbers were not present in the programming for some reason. Weird. So he put them in and established new information, he says this was the problem. So i dropped it into the water and it started! Awesome. However next day mid afternoon, again the faint periodic beep is back and try to start the engines and the load beeps take place per usual and again NOTHING! It's a 100 Degrees out here and nothing. Super disappointed.

I'm at a loss, my mechanic is super busy and hates working on jet boat versions because he is upside down and does not want to get involved with this problem, because he has not seen it before. Anyone experience this and can offer some insight? Please advise, your response is greatly appreciated.

 

[USAF_Pride]

You'll need to get the MPEM read again to see if the information is still stored in there. If it isn't, then something is goofy with the MPEM and you may need to replace it.

Also, you posted in the PWC section, hopefully [MENTION=31048]LouDoo[/MENTION] or [MENTION=43374]Coastiejoe[/MENTION] can move this to the boat section for you.

 

[8675-30-9]

You'll need to get the MPEM read again to see if the information is still stored in there. If it isn't, then something is goofy with the MPEM and you may need to replace it.

Also, you posted in the PWC section, hopefully [MENTION=31048]LouDoo[/MENTION] or [MENTION=43374]Coastiejoe[/MENTION] can move this to the boat section for you.

Oooops my bad. Thank you.

 

[LouDoo]

Moving this to the 2-stroke boat forum and deleting the other thread.

Lou

 

[Seadoobuddy]

Hi & welcome to the forum.

Great Id name and phone number made into a song.....867-53 09

 

[Waterluvr]

So, when the starter functions are working in cooler temperatures are both motors starting, idling and otherwise running the boat satisfactorily at all ranges of throttle operation and does that situation change when things heat up in the engine compartment?

Electronics, specifically soldered points of contact in circuit boards such as diodes etc. will show a repetitive pattern of malfunction / failure sometimes depending on ambient temperature. Based on your initial description of being able to start the motors during periods of cooler temperatures only, and the answer as to what happens as things heat up in the engine bay I think it's reasonable to suspect your MPEM module may be on the way out.

I usually pretty much stick to factory testing procedures but in this case I have a very unconventional suggestion, pack a couple bags of ice around the watertight gray box that house the mpem when it acts up and see what happens an hour later.

Dropping the temperature of that MPEM module 50*f or more should be pretty black and white at that stage if things suddenly start working.

Check the main ground to the MPEM just for good measure.

 

[8675-30-9]

So, when the starter functions are working in cooler temperatures are both motors starting, idling and otherwise running the boat satisfactorily at all ranges of throttle operation and does that situation change when things heat up in the engine compartment?

Electronics, specifically soldered points of contact in circuit boards such as diodes etc. will show a repetitive pattern of malfunction / failure sometimes depending on ambient temperature. Based on your initial description of being able to start the motors during periods of cooler temperatures only, and the answer as to what happens as things heat up in the engine bay I think it's reasonable to suspect your MPEM module may be on the way out.

I usually pretty much stick to factory testing procedures but in this case I have a very unconventional suggestion, pack a couple bags of ice around the watertight gray box that house the mpem when it acts up and see what happens an hour later.

Dropping the temperature of that MPEM module 50*f or more should be pretty black and white at that stage if things suddenly start working.

Check the main ground to the MPEM just for good measure.

Yes, both are running no problem at all ranges. I have run it for an hour or so with no negative repercussions at this point. It just seems when it's been sitting in the high heat, it's a no-go. I did leave the engine compartment open one day and it did start......... Will definitely give this a try this coming weekend. Thank you. What's an MPEM run a guy these days???

 

[8675-30-9]

Thanks guys for the support. And yes the phone # ID is the bomb! lol

 

[Danosll]

That's good thinking waterluvr . I my self am at wits end with my mpem problem it used to be intermittent . But now it happens everyday I use the boat. In the morning I will get my 2beeps gauges work but nothing happens when I push start button nothing happens . http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?70904-1997-2beeps-won-t-start. So I let my 10 year old play with dess key on/off till he gets 4beeps with shifter in gear. Then the boat is good all day into the evening. Then we start all over again the next day. Doesn't change whether or not I disconnect battery overnight. Oh we'll I've learnt to live with it.

 

[Waterluvr]

That's good thinking waterluvr . I my self am at wits end with my mpem problem it used to be intermittent . But now it happens everyday I use the boat. In the morning I will get my 2beeps gauges work but nothing happens when I push start button nothing happens . http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?70904-1997-2beeps-won-t-start. So I let my 10 year old play with dess key on/off till he gets 4beeps with shifter in gear. Then the boat is good all day into the evening. Then we start all over again the next day. Doesn't change whether or not I disconnect battery overnight. Oh we'll I've learnt to live with it.

In 8675's case my suspicion is a loose connection to a component on the board itself. Or in other words he hasn't had a total failure of a diode, resistor etc. but has an issue on the circuit board with the connection to it. His description fits that of every single intermittent operational problem I ever had my hands into that a replacement ECU, module, MPEM or whatever nomenclature the manufacturer in question used to identify it fixed the problem for good.

We all know what happens when things heat up and cool down, and in some cases that can make or break conductivity in a circuit board.

I'd love to get my hands on a couple different model years of known bad MPEM's for these boats and carefully remove the potting material and open them up for testing and attempt to identify the defect and repair them.

I can't see any reason why they can't be fixed as virtually every modern board that serves the purpose of a progressive logic control for fuel injection, ignition and transmission in the automotive world has more than one aftermarket source for repair or exchange needs and they are far more complex than the limited functions of these sport boat MPEM's.

 

[Danosll]

I agree .it's just that potting material . In my case I believe it might be a relay. Although I have tried holding a powerfull magnet over each to see if it makes a difference but hasn't . Over the winter I will attempt to remove as much of the material as possible. We are at a big advantage , being 2 decade old technology the components are much larger and less complex.then their modern day counterparts

 

[Waterluvr]

I noticed there is an aftermarket company on ebay selling brand new replacement modules for the ski's with user adjustable timing on a selector button. They don't appear to have anything available for the boats yet, wonder if something's in the works?

I would buy a new integrated module that runs everything just like the original MPEM in a hot minute if it could eliminate the DESS feature and replace it with a simple momentary or keyed ignition switch and a safety lanyard clip / kill switch.

 

[8675-30-9]

I agree .it's just that potting material . In my case I believe it might be a relay. Although I have tried holding a powerfull magnet over each to see if it makes a difference but hasn't . Over the winter I will attempt to remove as much of the material as possible. We are at a big advantage , being 2 decade old technology the components are much larger and less complex.then their modern day counterparts

Previous to this, I owned a new 1998 Challenger identical to the one I have now and one issue I had with it was the black coil box would fill with water because the seal was not seated properly. Maybe check those. Waterluvr is on the right path with this one for me. To me this is a DESS driven problem, which means bad MPEM, if it was a relay in my case I think I would get the regular 2 beeps on the DESS.

 

[Danosll]

I would buy a new integrated module that runs everything just like the original MPEM in a hot minute if it could eliminate the DESS feature and replace it with a simple momentary or keyed ignition switch and a safety lanyard clip / kill switch.[/QUOTE]
Would be nice. This member reworks ski mpem s to work in boats http://www.seadooforum.com/member.php?41828-Minnetonka4me

 

[8675-30-9]

In 8675's case my suspicion is a loose connection to a component on the board itself. Or in other words he hasn't had a total failure of a diode, resistor etc. but has an issue on the circuit board with the connection to it. His description fits that of every single intermittent operational problem I ever had my hands into that a replacement ECU, module, MPEM or whatever nomenclature the manufacturer in question used to identify it fixed the problem for good.

We all know what happens when things heat up and cool down, and in some cases that can make or break conductivity in a circuit board.

I'd love to get my hands on a couple different model years of known bad MPEM's for these boats and carefully remove the potting material and open them up for testing and attempt to identify the defect and repair them.

I can't see any reason why they can't be fixed as virtually every modern board that serves the purpose of a progressive logic control for fuel injection, ignition and transmission in the automotive world has more than one aftermarket source for repair or exchange needs and they are far more complex than the limited functions of these sport boat MPEM's.

For you my friend I will donate my MPEM for autopsy. I do not like the feeling of going out into the water with faulty components.......we are on a big-a$$ lake therefore this will more than likely get replaced.

 

[Danosll]

Previous to this, I owned a new 1998 Challenger identical to the one I have now and one issue I had with it was the black coil box would fill with water because the seal was not seated properly. Maybe check those. Waterluvr is on the right path with this one for me. To me this is a DESS driven problem, which means bad MPEM, if it was a relay in my case I think I would get the regular 2 beeps on the DESS.

I agree bad solder joint.

 

[Waterluvr]

For you my friend I will donate my MPEM for autopsy. I do not like the feeling of going out into the water with faulty components.......we are on a big-a$$ lake therefore this will more than likely get replaced.

Understood, I run my boat near shore on Lake Michigan on flat days with a 24 hour forecast for same several miles North or South of the harbor entrance to get to some of the nicer beaches we enjoy meeting up at. That Lake has tried to kill me on nice days with sudden storms out of no where on substantially larger vessels over the years, so operating one of these small sport boats with an erratic MPEM issue not only completely robs you of enjoying it there are real safety concerns that go along with that on anything outside of a very small inland lake or body of water.

I see your MPEM is still available from SD at a ridiculous price, the modules in our Challenger's are not to be had anywhere. Adapting a jetski module to run the ignition is better than nothing but losing the gauges is a terrible trade off in a boat and a huge hit to any resale value.

I really think it would be worthwhile to approach the company manufacturing those new ski modules and see if they have any interest in making them for the boats. The hurdle there is simply a numbers game from a manufacturing standpoint, far more ski's were built and sold versus boats.

 

[Waterluvr]

So I had a few relevant phone conversations this morning I'll share with you, two of the ebay seller's offering the new timing adjustable MPEM's for the ski's essentially share the opinion that the manufacturer's have no interest in developing them for the boat's due to the low numbers of them manufactured and sold. No big surprise there...

I called an engineering contact I have worked with in the past that specializes in the design and prototyping of progressive logic controls for industrial automation and gave him some insight as to the nature of what these MPEM modules do and all their associated functions and typical symptoms of failure. His response -"Open the damn thing up and fix it!"

I further explained that being out of the realistic skillset of most people and he laughed and said just send it to these guys it won't cost much and they have tech centers in the US and Canada that specialize in repairing things of this nature.

http://www.psi-repair.com/repair-services/printed-circuit-board-repair

Seems on their front web page they specialize in circuit repair for the US Military, -"Quick Fact: PSI’s repaired and manufactured circuit card assemblies (CCAs) are used on U.S. Naval ships, aircraft and submarines, as well as U.S. Air Force weaponry and radar systems."

I'f they can keep a Sub running a bad MPEM shouldn't to be much of a hurdle, I'd send them the whole system with DESS post and key, and a copy of the shop manual for the tech to reference.

 

[Danosll]

It's to remove the potting. I have repaired and reprogrammed a lot of automotive control modules and clusters from the past decade . So I'm sure I can either repair myself or get help from a colleague . But it is to properly remove the potting material

 

[USAF_Pride]

I've tried multiple ways to get the potting material out. It just isn't easy ")

 

[8675-30-9]

So I am out with my boat today, it started right off the bat. Then went to get water toys, came back and same sh!$ all over again......cooled down the MPEM with ice packs and no dice, ran the 5 button push diagnostic again and I am getting 3 short beeps??? Any idea what this means?

 

[gator6977]

I'm beginning to think it's just 97 Challengers, sheesh. Mine blew the 5 amp fuse which screamed bad MPEM. Everyone I asked, even the techs, said bad MPEM. Being cheap, I even dug the potting out and found and tested the diode, which was fine. So, lots a trial and error later I found that when I killed power to the MPEM, magical things happened. Stars aligned, birds chirped, deer mated and it quit blowing the fuse and would run fine. Just can't run WOT for lengths of time. 6k is good, 7k is bad!

That said, I would simply try unhooking the battery for a few seconds and see if that resets whatever magical process inside the MPEM. Also, I found that the dielectric grease was pretty used up on all of the connections under the dash and going into the MPEM. I took them all off and added some fresh to each gage, plug for the DESS and master plug that goes into the magic gray box. Hope this helps. I'm getting close to giving mine a Viking burial...

 

[Waterluvr]

Now were getting somewhere 8675, three beeps once you have entered the advanced self diagnostic mode indicates a ground in the DESS switch post wiring harness.

I'd remove the battery cables to let the MPEM power down, remove and check every connection on that harness plug along with wiring condition and inspect/clean/coat with dielectric grease and see what you have. Make sure there's not a break in one of the wires coming out the back of the switch body.

Look at all the pins in the harness connectors, are they all at the same level in the plug? Make sure none of them have come loose at the lock tabs at the base where the wire is crimped.

Clean the post and lanyard contact really well with some alcohol, put that plastic lanyard cap under a magnifying glass and see if there are any stress cracks or fractures affecting the holding tension once it's placed on the post. A lanyard problem should have two short beeps to indicate it can't be read or a bad magnet in the post.

You're on the right track to finding that problem now.

 

[Danosll]

Try this . I have used a powerfull magnet on dess post and traced wires right up to and inside gray box to bypass and test.
Dess post test

You can test the DESS Post itself with an Ohm Meter and the following procedure:

Check the DESS Post physical connections first.

With the Lanyard off and using the Ohm Meter on the Black Packard connector wires:

Blk wire to Blk/Yellow = Open Circuit
White/Gray wire to terminal on post = 0 Ohm (.7~1.3 Ohms found=OK)
Blk to ring of post = close to 0 Ohm (.6~5.2 Ohms found=OK)

Lanyard on...

Blk to Blk/Yellow = close to 0 Ohm (.6~5.3 Ohms found=OK)

You can get into a diagnostic mode by pressing the start button 5 times without the Lanyard Plugged in.

If you get 2 short beeps the MPEM can't read the ROM or the reed switch is bad in the DESS Post,,, Replace it.

2 long beeps= Wrong Lanyard or bad DESS wire
3 short beeps= short somewhere

If it starts..you are good to go.
If the DESS post checks out OK, then you either have a ground somewhere else in the wiring harness or mpem

 

[8675-30-9]

Okay, I tested the DESS over 2 seperate days per the above and surprise surprise, no change all is working within the tolerances specified at both temperature ranges 95 deg (boat does not start) and 65 deg (boat starts)......I also realized while I was in there that the MPEM was replaced in 2013......MPEM toasted boyz?

Also, have not heard back from the PSI guys, however it is the weekend so lets see what Monday brings....

Try this . I have used a powerfull magnet on dess post and traced wires right up to and inside gray box to bypass and test.
Dess post test

You can test the DESS Post itself with an Ohm Meter and the following procedure:

Check the DESS Post physical connections first.

With the Lanyard off and using the Ohm Meter on the Black Packard connector wires:

Blk wire to Blk/Yellow = Open Circuit
White/Gray wire to terminal on post = 0 Ohm (.7~1.3 Ohms found=OK)
Blk to ring of post = close to 0 Ohm (.6~5.2 Ohms found=OK)

Lanyard on...

Blk to Blk/Yellow = close to 0 Ohm (.6~5.3 Ohms found=OK)

You can get into a diagnostic mode by pressing the start button 5 times without the Lanyard Plugged in.

If you get 2 short beeps the MPEM can't read the ROM or the reed switch is bad in the DESS Post,,, Replace it.

2 long beeps= Wrong Lanyard or bad DESS wire
3 short beeps= short somewhere

If it starts..you are good to go.
If the DESS post checks out OK, then you either have a ground somewhere else in the wiring harness or mpem