First time PWC buyer, looking for advice/pitfalls to avoid

[No1uNo]

Hi everyone!

Sorry for the long post. I'm new to the forums and to PWC and am hoping I can trouble some of you for advice and pitfalls to avoid.

First a little history: I grew up in a boating family where summer meant lake. However, after my parents sold their boat 20 years ago I've never been able to afford my own (and a truck to pull it with) and so have spent 2 long decades itching to get back on the water and to introduce my now teenage kids to the amazing water summers I took for granted when I was their age. This past July we spent an afternoon boating with some friends for the first time in 20 years and I had a blast getting back up on my old kneeboard (yes, my original bright orange Hydroslide Pro from the mid 80's) and also teaching my kids how to kneeboard.

Anyway, to make a short story long, that afternoon on the lake totally fanned the flames of my wanting to be able to get back on the water on a regular basis with my family on our own watercraft. While I still don't have a truck and can't really afford a boat, I'm thinking perhaps one or two used PWC's just might get the job done nicely. The problem is that my wife did not grow up in a boating family and so doesn't share the same desire that I do. She enjoys spending time up at the lake but doesn't feel the same draw to watersports that I do. My kids of course are completely psyched at the idea so I would like to do as much homework as I can before making a purchase likely next spring/summer. I figure if I've done my homework it will probably make my wife more open to the idea and will also make our experience much more enjoyable for everyone. Last week while on vacation we rented two PWC for an hour (first time ever on one for all of us) and we had a blast. I realize the novelty of that will likely wear off after a while which is why I'm also planning on using them to tow tubes, kneeboards, etc.

Here's what I've found so far and I'm hoping people can add other details I should know or let me know if they disagree with anything I've discovered...

1) Avoid 2 stroke as they are being phased out and can be difficult/expensive to find parts for.
2) Buying used can save a lot of money but can also be risky as you might be buying someone else's headache.
3) Skiing/kneeboarding/wakeboarding/wake skating behind a PWC is very similar to a boat but a PWC has a narrower wake. Some people prefer this, others do not.
4) Used PWC buyer's guides always say to make sure to do things like check the engine compression and go for a water test but these things aren't always possible. An owner of a used PWC probably isn't going to be too crazy about me taking out all of the spark plugs to run a compression test and then hope I put them back in correctly and lakes aren't always easily accessible to go for a water test. Are these really necessary or can I get a good impression of the PWC by inspecting it and hearing it run for a short time on land?

I also have questions about maintenance and winter storage. I don't know anything about PWC maintenance but am willing to learn. Are they expensive to maintain and/or subject to frequent breakdowns? One of the reasons I want to get two is because there are 4 people in our family and 2 PWC will let all of us be out on the water and explore hidden and hard to access beaches (and cliff diving areas) together. The other reason is because if one breaks down way out in the middle of the lake we have another to tow it back. My wife is worried that they will become a money pit always requiring something to be fixed. From growing up with a boat, I know things break and need fixing occasionally but am just wondering about the "money pit" aspect. Also, we live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada where the winters are very cold (into the -30's C, -20's to -30's F) and I don't really want to give up my garage space and park a car outside for winter. Can PWC be easily winterized and kept outside (with covers on) and survive the elements or do they require heated storage?

Finally, I have seen a few people on kijiji (it's like a Canadian version of Craig's list) selling used PWC sometimes from about the mid to late 90's for pretty afforadable prices (sometimes 2 PWC 1997-99 with a double trailer for $5,000 - $6,000). Is that too old and should be avoided like the plague or can there still be a lot of life left in a 15-20 year old machine?

Thanks for your time
Joel

 

[red2blue]

Finally, I have seen a few people on kijiji (it's like a Canadian version of Craig's list) selling used PWC sometimes from about the mid to late 90's for pretty afforadable prices (sometimes 2 PWC 1997-99 with a double trailer for $5,000 - $6,000). Is that too old and should be avoided like the plague or can there still be a lot of life left in a 15-20 year old machine?

Thanks for your time
Joel

dunno of any 4 strokes that old

 

[chuckthevoice]

Buy 2 brand new Spark.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

 

[1of500]

If you are on a budget, better stick with a 2stroke. Most 4 strokes are parted out when an engine fails. You can find 4 strokes in the 3 to 4 thousand range but I would water test the crap out of it because anything major you won't be able to fix yourself.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

[Coastiejoe]

I love my 4-tec skis. That said, I have $25 grand invested. 2-strokes have considerably shorter engine life, but are more affordable to repair 4-tec engines can easily get into the thousands of hours where 2-strokes seem to need services around 200 hours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[No1uNo]

Thanks for the advice. Just to make sure I'm hearing correctly then...

2 strokes aren't being phased out and are actually easier and less expensive to service than 4 strokes. The main negative though is that 2 strokes need to be serviced more often. However, 2 stroke servicing I can likely do myself whereas 4 stroke will require a professional and lots of $$.

Is that a correct assessment? If so, when we talk "servicing", what are we referring to? Is it a changing of the oil or something much more involved?

 

[bigJake]

just be aware that in a few places, the tree huggers are pushing a ban of older 2 stroke PWC's because they don't meet newer emission standards. unlikely that you are affected, but worth verifying before buying. If a seller doesn't want you to do a compression test he is most likely trying to hide a problem, walk away. It only takes 5 minutes so it should not be an issue. I would insist on a water test ride. Asking a few very simple questions also will give you an idea if the owner has been doing routine maintenance. if the ski has RAVE valves as most older Seadoos do, when were they last cleaned. If he gives you a blank stare indicating he has no idea what you are talking about, the ski hasn't been maintained. When was the pump oil last changed, again look for the blank stare. Ask what oil he is using to confirm he is at least using the proper type of oil. If it is an older seadoo, just look at the fuel lines and see if they are grey and say TEMPO on them. If so, you know in advance there will be fuel system issues that need addressed (replace all fuel lines, rebuild,clean carbs, etc)

 

[No1uNo]

Thanks. What about winter storage? Do they need heated or indoor storage for very cold sub-freezing temps or is winterizing them and storing them covered outside sufficient?

 

[Coastiejoe]

Ok,,,
Advantage of the 4-tecs:
Run fantastic and produce lots of power. Are nearly identical to tradition automotive engines as far as how they operate. Are fairly easy to diagnose due to being able to plug into them to see what the brain is seeing. Generally they are larger skis, more stable and can easily handle three people as well as pull tubes and skiers.

Advantage of the 2-strokes:
Much easier to repair once you know what to fix. A top end consists of major parts of the engines such as pistons. These are affordable and replaceable without pulling the engine.. The 2-stroke can produce lots of power for its size.

Issues of the 4-tecs:
Initial cost and cost to repair. As mentioned, with the proper tools, they are not hard to diagnose, but the tool cost $400 to read the ski.

Issues with the 2-strokes:
They are carbed and carbs are not as efficient as the injection system on the 4-tec. Known fuel line issues that is pretty easy to solve as you simply replace it. Running issues can be hard to find as it take practical experience and knowledge from others to diagnose it.

Cooling:
The 2-stroke uses the water it is sitting in. This means that if you are in salt water, then salt water is going through and touching every part of the ski, (the pump, impeller, cooling lines, internal engine parts ect ect).
The 4-tec is a CLOSED LOOP system. This means there is a separate tank much like a car. There is a "Ride Plate" on the bottom of the ski. The anti-freeze runs through the ride-plate internally. The external ride-plate is cooled by the water you are in. So it is the "radiator" if you compare the system to a vehicle. Officially, it is a "heat exchanger".

Winter storage:
Both are pretty easy to do. The 4-tec ialready has antifreeze so it requires nothing to be run through the engine for the most part. There are a few items that the "raw water" (the water you are sitting on) touches. Such as inter-coolers, exhause and the impeller area.
A 2-stroke the engine needs to be winterized as again, the raw water passes through all the ports of the ski.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[No1uNo]

That is great information! Thank you. Looks like there are some pros and cons with either that are worth consideration but also there doesn't appear to be anything that automatically makes me cross off either option as well. That's good to know since the budget I'm trying to stay within will have me looking at used skis, most likely 2 stroke but possibly the occasional 4-tec as well.

I'm thinking I will definitely insist on a water test for whatever I buy (have to get my licence first of course) and will have to learn how to do a compression test. I briefly looked up how to do it and it doesn't appear that difficult. I just need a compression tester. This may be a bit of a rookie question but do plugs need to be properly torqued with a torque wrench when put back in or is a spark plug attachment on my socket set sufficient?

 

[Coastiejoe]

I own two 4-tec skis and LOVE them both. For me, it's the only way to go. Not the case for everyone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[No1uNo]

Just out of curiosity, what is the primary activity that most PWC owners use there skiis for? I know answers could vary quite a bit but, having come from a boat family that mostly skied/tubed/knee boarded (wakeboards didn't exist yet and I'm not even quite sure what wake skates are), I'm wondering if the sheer joy of just riding a PWC is enough to sustain interest over the years for most people or do the majority also use them to tow various water sports. I'm anticipating using at least one as a tow for watersports but am wondering how most use their watercraft.

 

[Coastiejoe]

I owned a 27 foot Searay for years. Got deployed so many times that I sold it as I simply could not use it. Bought my skis two-years later and NEVER looked back.. Early on we towed tubes and skied, but now I use them to go out and ride and play. One of my favorite things is to go to the Kissimmee River. It is a BLAST. A bit of a drive for me, but well worth it. Meet up with 5 or 6 other skis and just go. Last trip we did 90 miles, traveled through the locks, got fuel and stopped at a restaurant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[meedz]

I recently went from a 2 stroke to the 4-tec - a night and day difference. The 4-Tec is amazing, and definitely kicks butt when it comes to tow sports.

 

[MPower]

Aside from the cost and maintenance between the two, you have the actual riding experience differences.

2stroke skis are going to be smaller and lighter. They are easier to throw around, do tricks, jump, etc. They are also wet rides, you will get soaked riding them.

4stroke skis are big and heavy. They are very stable with multiple passengers. Much better for tow sports. They are not good at jumping or doing tricks. If its a supercharged 4tec that kind of behavior will destroy a charger quickly anyway. Due to the size and design they are also very dry rides.

So it also comes down to what kind of experience you want.

I have 3 4tec skis. 215hp, 255hp, and a highly modified RXPX 260 with well over 300HP.

90% of the time I am riding my 20 year old 95 XP800. So much more entertaining to ride.

 

[Spimothy Leary]

I switched my 2nd ski from 2 stroke to 4 about 18 months ago, and then finally sold my last 2 stroke 6 months ago. I can't imagine going backwards at this stage of the game although i'm still considering picking up an older x4 for "fun days"

My entire ride circle, maybe about 20 riders total is 75% 4 stroke, so maybe 5 two strokes left, that number seems to drop every couple of months, I expect by next summer we'll be down to maybe 2 holdouts. (

Thanks for the advice. Just to make sure I'm hearing correctly then...

2 strokes aren't being phased out and are actually easier and less expensive to service than 4 strokes. The main negative though is that 2 strokes need to be serviced more often. However, 2 stroke servicing I can likely do myself whereas 4 stroke will require a professional and lots of $$.

Is that a correct assessment? If so, when we talk "servicing", what are we referring to? Is it a changing of the oil or something much more involved?

that assessment is correct...

Just out of curiosity, what is the primary activity that most PWC owners use there skiis for? I know answers could vary quite a bit but, having come from a boat family that mostly skied/tubed/knee boarded (wakeboards didn't exist yet and I'm not even quite sure what wake skates are), I'm wondering if the sheer joy of just riding a PWC is enough to sustain interest over the years for most people or do the majority also use them to tow various water sports. I'm anticipating using at least one as a tow for watersports but am wondering how most use their watercraft.

Only a couple people that I know actually use their pwc for tow sports, and they are in their early 30's with younger kids so it makes sense. The vast majority of those I know just get a small/medium sized group together and tour the various waterways, we try to explore anything within a 4-6 hour drive, just to mix it up and alleviate boredom.

We ride for an hour or so, stop & socialize, ride another hour or so, stop for food/drinks, then head back to the ramp. Most rides consist of about 3 hours riding, and an hour of social BS + tow time. My ride saturday I left 9am, returned around 3pm.

 

[Sea Dood]

The forums tend to get a lot of 2-stroke fans and a lot of activity, but the basic fact is that 2-strokes are going the way of the dinosaurs. 4 strokes are so much more reliable and less of a pain in the azz factor. If you like a little smokey beast that consumes lots of fuel and is finicky, by all means go for 2 stroke. You say you want to pull stuff, forget it with a 2 stroke.

I went 4 stroke about 4 years ago, and haven't missed the 2 stroke at all. Especially the family. Since I am the one that maintains stuff and deals with the aggravation when they don't work or won't start, it is much, much less hassle. You can just jump on the ski and go. Maintenance for the last three years has been just change spark plugs and oil at end of season along with winterization. Just put fuel in them during the season, that's it. I have more than twice the horsepower and use less than half the gas I used to, and don't need to worry about expensive injection oil.

The 2 strokes left will only be used by a very small niche of people in certain sports, like wave jumping. The average person will never buy a 2 stroke if they know about the pros and cons.

 

[Spimothy Leary]

although I agree almost entirely with the above post, the main driving factor for 2 strokes is price: less cost to buy, less cost to repair, lack of depreciation, all factor in to the decision making process.

An entry level 4 stroke will run $3500 pretty much minimum anywhere you go and there are a lot of peeps that just can't justify that high of an entry price for a water toy. If you want something somewhat special, you can bump that up to about 6K minimum. So factor in approx 4K for a basic model, 6K for an upgrade, 8K for a really nice machine, its easy to see why people still are attracted to 2 stroke options that will cost half, or less than half.

IMO the 2 stroke is definitely on its way out, and has about 3-4 years before its completely niche, but I may have said that 3 years ago too.

 

[MPower]

Cost and fun factor.

4stroke doesn't hold a candle to the fun factor of an X4.

 

[Sea Dood]

Cost and fun factor.

4stroke doesn't hold a candle to the fun factor of an X4.

But it depends what you call fun, this may be different between folks. Fun for me now is cruising at high speed with a group down the narrow fingers of our lake.

Although on a 2 stroke, it feels like you are going faster than you actually are, LOL.

 

[jammin777]

back in 97 i bought a new 97 seadoo gsx and loved the playfulness and the challenge in choppy water. long story short, i sold it in 04 to buy a house. a couple year ago. i bought a 99 gsx rfi and being older my body just cant take the punishment anymore. a couple months ago i bought a 2015 gti130 and love it. i did my homework and chose a gti hull because it is the most playful of the 4 tec hulls yet it plows through chop much better than my gsx and much easier on my aging body.
to me the 4 tec would be the way for you to go as they are family friendly for pulling tubes and wake boarding. now if you want a thrill ride and dont care for pulling toys, then a spark or older 2 stroke may be better. unless you are mechanically inclined, stay away from the 2 stroke di's and rfi's as they can be a real pain to troubleshoot and can be very costly to have someone fix it for you.

 

[No1uNo]

Thanks again for all of those perspectives. I really appreciate the info. Other than the hot tub on my deck, the nearest body of salt water I know of is the Pacific Ocean which is about 14 hours away so I likely won't be going out on any oceans and will be skiing on lakes and possibly rivers.

Since I'm trying to stay on a rather economical (read "cheap") budget for a first purchase, price will be the largest, though not sole, factor in determining which machine(s) I buy. Living in Alberta, I suspect the selection of used skiis is probably quite a bit less than if I lived some place like Florida or California. On the plus side, since our summer is quite short and we only have a few months of the year that they can be used, older used skiis will probably tend to have lower hours on them than if I lived in a year round climate.

One thing I'm not sure I'm completely understanding yet is the "service" that needs to be done on a 2 stroke every 300 hours. Is this like an oil and lube kind of thing or is it more of an invasive "engine rebuilding" kind of thing? Also, trailers often get overlooked. What kind of maintenance does a trailer need, how often does it need to be done and is it relatively cheap and easy or expensive and difficult?

 

[No1uNo]

Another thing I forgot to ask, what year did 4-tec's come on the market and what year did they stop making 2 strokes (assuming they've stopped making them)?

Also, I realize that this is the Sea Doo discussion forum but do any of you have any experience with other manufacturers such as Yamaha? Are those machines any good or should I stear clear? The ones that I rented last week were Yamaha 4-tec machines and they seemed awesome but that's coming from my now grand total of 1 hour of driving experience. The rental shop had at least 20-25 of the same machine so I'd imagine they must be pretty decent to be able to hold up to the rigors of being rental equipment.

 

[jammin777]

if cheap as in price is what you want but want to pull toys the at the very least go for a 2 stroke 787cc gtx which is a 3 seater. a 3 seater is a must for pulling toys, driver, spotter and the one being pulled. it would be better if you were able to find a used 07 and up gti 4 tec which would have more pulling power. if pulling toys is not a factor then a 2 seater gsx is the most stable of the older 2 seaters and a great ski! especially if it had a 787cc engine which are very reliable.
the hours of service meaning before they need major attention such as engine rebuild. 787 cc = 3 to 400 hrs if well taken care of. 951 up to 200 hrs. these are high strung engines meaning they make a lot of power for the size = shorter life span.
4 tec engine can last well over 1000 hrs if well maintained. folks say that 2 stroke are cheaper and easier to work on which is true, but, 4 tecs require less attention as long as it is taken care of. much of that depends of how it has lived before you buy it.

buying a used ski or boat is risky business! much more so than buying a car. special attention is required to inspection and being able to test ride before you buy. the famous all it need is a battery or starter is a ski that doesn't run period and should be priced as such. when you are ready to buy feel free to start a thread seeking advice.

as for trailer maint, repack or replace the wheel bearings annually, use marine grease. inspect the trailer frame for cracks and rust, trailer bunk inspection and winch inspection and the lights and tires.

 

[No1uNo]

What is in involved in an engine rebuild? Is it as pricey as it sounds (even if done myself) and how difficult would it be to do it myself if I've never done it before but am reasonably comfortable following tutorials and youtube instructional videos? I don't mind tinkering around as long as my tinkering has a fairly high probability of success or at least a very low probability of causing further damage.