1997 Speedster, is sidejob guy ripping me off

[pjbialas]

I just bought a 1997 sea doo speedster 85 x 2 bombardier engines
just purchased
Right away I noticed one engine rattled alot when i got it home and the bilge didn't work. I checked it in to a side job guy who after a week and half first told me the carborators/jets needed to be cleaned out for 4 hours of labor at $80 per hour, and now says that on the engine that rattles the crank seals are shot and the engine could go at any moment. He says 8 hours of labor will be needed to do the job. he says it should vacuum, but it is drawing air from the outside instead of from the carb. He told me last week compression was good... is he taking me for a ride? I am lost at what to do... I'm not sure if i trust him... Does an engine crank seal take 8 hours labor for an experienced mechanic?

 

[scooper77515]

If the engine rattles...

But if the jet pump rattles, that is OK, and you are being taken for a ride. The jet pumps rattle when they are run out of the water.

It likely needs carbs rebuilt/cleaned if they haven't been in the past few years. That is typical for our boats.

Bilge is a separate issue altogether, and either a short, broken wire, or fuse.

My FINAL answer is "if you feel something fishy is going on and don't trust him, trust your instincts". It isn't difficult to find someone else to work on it, even if it is the dealer, who may charge twice the price by the hour, but take half as long to fix it.

 

[pjbialas]

engine shakes

yea it shakes in the water (only one engine) as well, do you know how long a crank seal would normally take to replace? It is only one engine the other is fine.. he also mentioned it was backfireing alot, however I never heard a backfire when I ran it on the lake? is it different than a car...aka not audible? The bilge would run for a second when i replaced the fuse then repop, sounds to me like the bilge works, but the line has a short..any thoughts?

thanks

 

[scooper77515]

Like I said, trust your instincts. If you think the guy is tossing you a wolf cookie, go somewhere else, and see if they say the same thing. BEFORE you fork out the big money to fix what you don't see or hear.

 

[kcr357]

What is his reasoning for the crank seals needing replaced? Oil leak? smoke? a bad seal isnt gonna make it rattle. Ask for references for his prior work

 

[custompartsguy]

first $80.00 an hour for a side job guy is completly crazy......I run my own mobile repair business and need only charge about half of what a shop does due to the non-shop fees overhead. There are shops here that only charge $80-90 an hour. I charge $50 an hr mechanical and $65 hr electrical.....but that is neither here nor there.....

Did you check the motor mounts yet? if not then go grab that motor and try pulling it side to side for any play if play is found and the motor moves then you have a bad mount.......ask for a 2nd opinion an honest mechanic will have no problem letting you have another person check it over.

Backfiring.....has he already rebuilt your carbs and after that told you it was backfiring?

Listen to how he explains things to you and if he almost has to sell you the repair or pauses hesitates when talking to you about the repairs like he isnt quite sure what he is doing, you can usually tell in the voice if he is being honest with you, listen in his voice it will say alot, if you really do not trust him, it never hurts to take it elseware for the assurance.

Belige pump sounds like a broken/crossed wire somewhere, but a seized pump will also pop the fuse or breaker switch, its easy to check the pump quick 5 min check, there will be a little tab on each side of the lower screen housing, sweeze them both in and pull the pump up at the same time, now the pump will be in your hand with the impeller exposed, make sure power is off to it, try turning thr impeller in the beilge pump by hand and if it turns easy and freely then it should be good and is not seized. From there you can do 1 of 2 things look over the wires and find the problem or run new wires, your choice.

Engine vibration, how is it at idle?

 

[pjbialas]

at idle

reason for seals to be replaced: He said it is not vacuuming properly, it is drawing air from outside instead of from carbs, so seal needs to be replaced.

Did you check the motor mounts yet? He said he had stopped the engine from shaking now, not sure what he did, but says I will blow a seal soon any minute. Whats interesting is that I thought it ran great on the lake, just wanted a tune up, noticed the shake it vibrated the boat a bit,and bilge. he mentioned compression is good.. i thought bad seal= bad compression, but worked fine before, he says he has 20 years exp hence the 80 per hour. I pick it up tonight, his quote for one new seal is $750, I will pay him 350 tonight for the carb clean and diagnosis..




Backfiring.....has he already rebuilt your carbs and after that told you it was backfiring? He did not rebuild them, but said he cleaned them and the jets (4 hours labor)



Engine vibration, how is it at idle? Still a slight shake (only the left engine)... this was two weeks ago when I had it last


Thanks for all the help
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Last edited by custompartsguy; Today at 07:25 AM..

 

[custompartsguy]

so it was not backfiring untill after he cleaned your carbs?

Also ask him what was making the motor shake and what he did to correct the problem.

 

[JJinSC]

first $80.00 an hour for a side job guy is completly crazy......I run my own mobile repair business and need only charge about half of what a shop does due to the non-shop fees overhead. There are shops here that only charge $80-90 an hour. I charge $50 an hr mechanical and $65 hr electrical.....but that is neither here nor there.....

:agree:

I got a quote for a carb rebuild from the local dealer for only $100.

 

[custompartsguy]

:agree:

I got a quote for a carb rebuild from the local dealer for only $100.

If he has twin carbs the rebuild kits alone would cost almost $100 just for the 2 kits, then plus labor which would be around 2 hours with them removing them from the motor and not a customer bring in.

So even with full rebuild kits and the labor to me should not be over $300 but thats just my 2 cents.

If the dealer quoted you $100 to rebuild your carb assuming it is a single carb and you take it off and bring it to them it would still cost over $100 for $100 they are not going to rebuild your carb end of story.

Most dealers charge at least $90 and hour up to $140 an hour....not giving that where is the parts cost? and only 1 hour labor?

 

[pjbialas]

I could not hear a backfire before? everything seemed fine, I'm not sure what a backfire sounds like on a jet engine, but did not notice a thing, it was nothing like a car or lawnmower backfire

 

[custompartsguy]

You can hear a backfire to matter what it is on, ask him if it is backfiring through the carbs or the exhaust. And just my 2 cents 4 hrs labor on just cleaning those carbs is crazy to me even with him taking them off and reinstalling them himself. He just charged you half of what I am charging a customer to replace twin bbc fi motor exhaust manifolds and risers on his motors, and for both motors still only calls for around 7.5 hrs labor. I have never seen just a cleaning cost so much. I would tell him no on paying $350 for the carbs I would negotiate a price with him. If he would have completly rebuilt them it may have been different but he way over charged you.

 

[custompartsguy]

labor cost is labor cost what he chooses to charge is his problem and does he own a store front/shop location with a business license and Id number posted for you? if not and he is only a " side job guy " then he will not last long charging his fees to customers.....they will catch on to how much he charges and over charges on labor and people will just stop using him if that is the case. I could go out and charge $110 an hour like some dealer ships as I am mobile and it makes it easier then hauling your 30 ft boat to the dealer however customers know better and even though my work is by far better then most shops I cannot charge nearly a dealership labor rate due to less overhead.


I am going to look up the labor rate on your carbs....let me know the exact engines you have in it?

 

[custompartsguy]

I have a 951 in my ski, but all the line ski's according to the labor guide call for 1.5 hrs labor to clean and rebuild a single carb and 1.8 hrs labor to clean and rebuild twin carbs, Now most times labor is given for everything complete for R&R like that time including to remove and replace the carbs as well, however if it does not then you are looking at another 1.5 hrs to R&R the carbs.....So even at that it seems like a total of 3.3 hrs but I may be way off I am just going but what I am reading, his times may be correct....


I do not know what is involved for the crank seal as I have a limited knowledge in pwc's and these motors so I have not have that of in fact any of these motors apart to know how long it takes to change it, if he has to seperate the crankcase to get in there it might seem that 8 hrs would be close to the right time. Sorry I cannot help you more as I do not know enough about these engines to help with labor time on internals

 

[timmyboy76]

theres alot of sh** on those/any carb (stock), to remove, to get them out. So, 3/3-1/2hrs aint bad time, BUT 350 BUKS...getthef*** ottahere. Only prob is, you "agreed", so think your screwed...you dont pay, you dont get your carbs..:rant:

Just hope, he didnt go f-in with it, since you "declined" the rebuild....feel for ya, bud.

 

[custompartsguy]

for the labor rate he is hitting you at I would suggest you see how much the dealer would charge you? might be worth having them do the work.

 

[pjbialas]

Thank you for your feedback, I plan to ask tonight what is backfiring, carbs or exhaust. I called a sea doo dealer and they said about $870, which will not include diagnosis and the bilge. I called another side a job guy whom a friend has used and says is very honest. (He said he works on these all the time) He said roughly 50 an hour , but he has never billed a job by the hour, sounding like he works with me. He said by the weekend If i drop off tonight he will have the full story and hopefully a fix within the week. This may sound crazy, but I will roll the dice again before I drop 1200 at the sea doo dealer. The motor I have i think is 787? I also called the guy who sold it too me and asked him if he would split the cost of the fix since the damage was existing, he reluctantly said he would send me a couple hundred if this guy said the same diagnosis.. what are your thoughts on asking the seller for money like i did? I feel a bit dirty for it? I told him it was his choice, was very pleasant, but felt the boat was not worth what i paid in the condition $3300 needing 1k in repair or more.

 

[pjbialas]

yea, I will pay him $350 tonight for carb clean and dignosis and get the F&*K outta there....

 

[custompartsguy]

Thank you for your feedback, I plan to ask tonight what is backfiring, carbs or exhaust. I called a sea doo dealer and they said about $870, which will not include diagnosis and the bilge. I called another side a job guy whom a friend has used and says is very honest. (He said he works on these all the time) He said roughly 50 an hour , but he has never billed a job by the hour, sounding like he works with me. He said by the weekend If i drop off tonight he will have the full story and hopefully a fix within the week. This may sound crazy, but I will roll the dice again before I drop 1200 at the sea doo dealer. The motor I have i think is 787? I also called the guy who sold it too me and asked him if he would split the cost of the fix since the damage was existing, he reluctantly said he would send me a couple hundred if this guy said the same diagnosis.. what are your thoughts on asking the seller for money like i did? I feel a bit dirty for it? I told him it was his choice, was very pleasant, but felt the boat was not worth what i paid in the condition $3300 needing 1k in repair or more.

Feeling like you paid to much for something lmfao.....check out my ski at http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?t=16945

I spent a $3200-$3400 trade for this ski in that link, and I am in the same boat no pun intended....I must invest just over $1k into her. I called the old owner and they laughed at me and told me nothing is wrong with the ski.

 

[pjbialas]

the old owner offered 200 reluctantly once i get the second quote which is coming this weekend. So the first mechanic told me the boat is water ready for one engine. I took the back off and he had the ruff motor taken apart with a bag over the carborator...wtf one of the problems i told him was water leaking into engine, it dosen't take a genious to figure out what water in the carbs does

 

[custompartsguy]

the old owner offered 200 reluctantly once i get the second quote which is coming this weekend. So the first mechanic told me the boat is water ready for one engine. I took the back off and he had the ruff motor taken apart with a bag over the carborator...wtf one of the problems i told him was water leaking into engine, it dosen't take a genious to figure out what water in the carbs does

I would make sure he even cleaned your carbs.....and wth he charged you for diagnosis but left the motor apart and gave it back to you that way?

Please to god tell me he did not hand you a box of bolts?

 

[pjbialas]

How it all ended up

OK, well I settled with the original owner at $400, which he says he is only giving me because he likes me. The second guy who gave me a quote has now found the pistons and crank are shot, the ring thing the first guy said he never looked at the pistons because it had compression, so I would have been screwed there, he would have charged me $800 then told me the motor was shot, maybe a way to get more business. I was up in the air whether to buy rebuilt off ebay for $850 (after shipping) but the guy doing the work said we can get a new motor with all sea doo parts with possibly used core? for $1500 locally and he would reccomend that, which puts me at $2000 - the 400 i hopefully get back and possibly on the water within a week....

morale of the story, bring a professional and pay him well to look at a boat before you buy..........I'm out 1600 and many sleepless nights and a po'd wife for now spending another 2k on something she never wanted...

-p

 

[timmyboy76]

you can get a complete reman motor from SBT w/ shipping, around 900 buks, w/1yr warr.

 

[Chester]

Hmmm! Interesting thread.
How experienced is the mechanic? A compression test is not an accurate indication of piston condition. The pistons and cylinder walls can have some major scoring from minor seizures or water ingestion and will still show 150 psi. The only way to properly determine the piston/cylinder wall condition is to pull the head off & look down the bores and/or pull the rave valves, if so equipped. If the seals are leaking (an engine leak test would verify this) then most likely the pistons would be damaged due to minor lean seizures. The cases must be split to replace the crank seals.

I am also a mobile mechanic and I specialize in Kawasaki, Yamaha and Sea-Doo PWC's. I also work on Yamaha and Sea-Doo jet boats. I do not work on ATV's snowmobiles, motorcycles or any other boats. I actually charge $5 - $10 more than the local dealers putting me at $110 per hour and I still have to turn away work because I can't handle it all. I'm actually considering raising my rates even more.

Chester

 

[pjbialas]

yes the head had sealent leaking out on the bad motor which ,ost likely means the previous owner knew what was up. Yea, all the the independent guys around here are 50-100 per hour with so much work they can raise their rates if they want... i see 10 jetskis 15 motorcycles , 3 boats and 20 lawnmowers on a one man show in the yard!. good point on the compression test , that was from the first guy i left. what do you think about 1500 for a new (i'm guessing rebuilt motor since they want the core) from seadoo with all seadoo parts, i was told this would be better than the ebay guy since parts would be aftermkt/....