New guy with a 2000 Challenger with problems

[Justintime_3]

Just purchased a 2000 Seadoo Challenger 200 for 1500 dollars. After speaking to the individual selling it she stated that it was parked at there dock which is a foot deep overnight. They came out the next morning and it had water inside. She stated that the plug gasket was bad, who knows. Anyways she drained it and took it to a dealer to get it checked out. Apparently they looked over everything and said that it had low compression on one cylinder so they proceeded to disassemble the motor into three boxes. Once she found out she said hell no and went and picked it up and thats how I purchased it.

Boat doesnt look bad comes with a full cover and three boxes of parts. Hull looks decent, seats will probably need redone soon. It was stored inside though. And I am pretty excited to get working on it. I looked at all 6 cylinders and pistons and none of them were melted, and no holes in the bklock so need some advice. What would you do? Put new rings in it and a full gasket set removing the automatic oiler? Completely rebuild everything with new pistons, rings, bearings, and leave the auto oiler on. I am very mechanically inclined and love taking on projects just not sure where to get the parts.

 

[El Toro 33809]

Welcome to the forum. If you are handy with tools, it should be a good buy. Try posting your question in the Mercury Powered Boat section if the forum. Dr. Honda rebuilt a Merc engine a little over a year ago and should be able to guide you with your new boat.

 

[Coastiejoe]

I will move the post to the Merc Section...
[MENTION=16022]Dr Honda[/MENTION] is the man to answer this question, he knows the Merc pretty well...

 

[Dr Honda]

Welcome.


First... what engine is it? Is there fuel injection, or carbs?


The merc engines are basically all the same. a 2.5L V6.


Since it's already apart... and it's 13 years old... I would do a rebuild.

1) Measure the cyl's. If they are in spec... give them a quick hone, and rebuild to stock size. If they are large, or out of round... send out the block, and go up one size

2) Get a power head rebuild kit. (pistons, rings, wrist pins, WP bearings, rod bearings, gaskets seals. Also. replace the crank bearings. (that's about $1k) Also... replace the bolts in the rod caps. They are a goofy bolt, and they torque based on "Strech". So... if you try to reuse them... they could snap later. (that gets ugly)

3) The Merc oil drive gear is known to fail when it gets old. SO... since it's apart... just put a new style gear on the crank, and keep the oil injection.


Post up some pics, and we can walk you though the rebuild.

 

[Justintime_3]

First of all Thanks for moving it over here. I just didnt want to jumble up the section with stuff people have seen already. Thank you DR. Honda for your suggestions, I have already read over your posts about the rebuild. I only have a couple boxes full of parts so I am unsure if it is fuel injected. I thought all 240's were but from the looks of the boxes I do not see any carbs but maybe you can tell me what you see.

 

[Dr Honda]

I see a "240" on the cycl head... and that was from the factory. So... yes, it's a 240 EFI engine. The reason I asked was, that boat could have also came with the 210 carb engine.



I'm seeing a lot of rust on the crank... and traces of rust on the bearing surfaces of the block. I'm thinking that the shop may have just been trying to screw the last owner. If it sank, but was running prior... all the needed to do is clear the engine... give it a shot of oil, and start it.

But... if it's been sitting... that rust could have started to pit the parts.


Once you get some time... carefully unpack the boxes, and post up some better pics.

 

[Justintime_3]

Perfect! Thats what I was looking for. She stated that it was a 240 so I was pretty sure of that, and I figured all 240's were EFI. Its still at her place so I havent been able to get any more pics so I will def post up more info once I get down there and look at it. I am hoping the rust is just surface but we will see. And what would you do in my shoes, considering what you have seen. Just put new rings and gaskets, hone the cylinder and replace the oiler and hope for the best? Or do a complete rebuild as you stated earlier.

 

[Dr Honda]

It' depends on what you are going to do with the boat. If you are going to keep it... fix it right.

 

[Cabadiesel]

Welcome , this site is a a great place to start. I hope to help if I can

 

[Justintime_3]

Okay so I am going to rebuild the complete powerhead just to be sure its done right and hopefully last for a couple years. I plan to keep the oil injector against my better judgement but I figure its been ten or so years and we are just starting to hear a lot of complaints about it failing so maybe its not such a bad thing to keep it on there. Plus the ease of just putting gas in makes it nice. Anyways I am still trying to find the rebuild kit. I have found the 2.5 v6 rebuild kit on ebay from a seller premier marine parts but thats about all I could find. Let me know where you all got yours Thanks.

 

[Dr Honda]

The oil injection had it's issues. The pump,and the rest of the system is great. It's just the drive gear. Also... we know now that over heating the engine would swell the bushings that drove the pump. That extra load would, in turn, eat the drive gear. Regardless... the new style drive gear is a glass filled nylon, and is significantly stronger. I trust my new engine to it.


Once you get it all unpacked... post up some pics of the parts. (Block, crank, ect)

My kit came from an ebay member named "Fasterthanmachone". But... he seems to not be posting parts anymore. BUT... he was a legit shop. I'll try to dig up the name and number in a little while. For now... I need to get a few things running on my CNC.

 

[Justintime_3]

Ok so got the boat today and got everything unpacked. Definitely oil pump gear failure with one piston pretty mashed up. The crank needs new bearings as they are not spinning real well. The cylinder does not look too too bad. How would you hone it? I used to hone my dirt bike cylinders with just a regular hone on a cordless drill and that seemed to work alright, but not sure if that's how you go about honing a cylinder like this. I will get pics of the cylinder later. The other picture is some type of gear but almost looks like it was busted off at the end. Any help on what it is and if its supposed to look like that would be greatly appreciated. Also how should I go about fixing the dents in the head. I do have a machine shop at my disposal. Thinking maybe weld it up and machine it smooth. Thanks again for any advice.. Thanks

 

[Dr Honda]

Yep... that was an oil gear failure.

Honestly... that engine isn't that bad. But with a melted piston... you can't just "Hone" the cyl. That will need cut to the next size. And, since it's a blind hole, not all shops can do it.

Measure the crank pins, and see if they are still in spec. Also... they need to be smooth without any pitting. If they are OK... scrub it with some kerosene, or diesel fuel to buff off the surface rust. Be careful with the sealing rings. They are cast iron, and if you put too much pressure on them, they will crack.

The gear is the oil pump gear. It looks like it was overheated, but it's not broken.

 

[Justintime_3]

Ok so any chance you dr Honda happen to have that fixture you used to hone the cylinder? I have a Bridgeport mill but its old school. I am comfortable machining it but will need the hone and fixture. Not really wanting to take it to someone to have it done. Kind of a do it yourself person. Going to buy the complete kit just looking at my options. The crank does not look bad at all. Just a little surface rust. Can wipe it off.

 

[Dr Honda]

Yep... I have the machining fixture, and a machinist's hone. I guess we could work out something as far as a rental. But, I don't know if my fixture will fit your table. My VF3 has a very large working window. (40" x 26" x 26") But, I guess if you have a Knee mill... you can drop your table down.


Let's start with this..... Measure the distance between your mounting channels, and the width. I made my fixture to drop into the table, so I don't' have to indicate it every time. I'll post a pic when I get into my shop this morning.


Just a little FYI on that kit I used......


I didn't do anything other than a "Stock" rebuild... but for whatever reason... my engine is running better than it should. The rev-limiter on the 240 should be at 6200 RPM, and the "Normal" full throttle power should be around 5850 PRM to about 5900 RPM. That should push my Islandia to the 43~45 mph mark. I'm getting to 6100 RPM, and with 8 people in the boat (half tank of fuel, full water, and lot's of gear on board) yesterday... I was running 48 mph!!!!


As I said before... I bought it from ebay. But the stickers on the kit were TSM Performance. And the physical shop was Tri-State Marine. I think the phone number was (847) 526-6211. The kit was about $800, and the new crank bearings were $120. The only other thing I had to get was the lower adapter gasket. I ordered it from Boats.net. I think it was about $19.

 

[Justintime_3]

Update got it all back together.

Okay so finished putting the motor back together. Ended up just using one of those high dollar hand held engine hone and cleaned up the cylinders real nice without going oversize. Got the motor installed back into the boat but I have a couple questions. First off is there are two holes on the blocks that look like they should have some kind of plug in them. The threads are clean and not painted so I am assuming something is supposed to be installed there. It is not the temp sensors as they are installed above these two holes. Here is a pic of the location. Any help would be graetly appreciated.

The second question I have is I cannot for the life of me figure out where the single cable goes that i Believe comes off of the steering wheel. I am guessing it is an enricher for the turn all the way to the right to get it started deal. But where does it connect to the motor. I have the bracket that mounts to the motor somewhere and the cable attaches to it but I dont know what it attaches to on the motor.

Okay one more question, is there supposed to be a blower motor connected to the two holes that come up out of the engine bay and reside under the flip up engine cover. The vent looks like dryer vent style hose and splits between the two hoses and there is no blower attached. Thanks for the help.

 

[Dr Honda]

On the heads: If it's the arrow in the first pic... yes... that's just a plug.

On the Cable: That thin cable is for the steering assist. It will mount to the plate at the bottom of the port side of the engine. (under the throttle cable) It points up. If you look at the throttle link, above the cam... you will see a black plastic puck. That's where the cable attaches. BUT... it's not easy to see, or get to, since it's almost behind the vapor tank. Personally... I would just leave it off. (and I did)

On the blower: YES... YOU NEED BILGE BLOWER !!!! I'm not sure exactly where you are talking... but generally, it's in one of the flexible hoses that dangle in the bilge, and are connected to the top of the hull.

 

[Justintime_3]

Excellent! Any Idea on what the thread size is or where you can get them for the head plug. I havent been able to find them on any schematic. Also I guess as long as it wont throw any codes for the steering wheel idle increase not being connected I will leave it disconnected. And I knew I need the bilge blower just wasnt sure if that was what was missing. Thanks for the info.

 

[Dr Honda]

Sorry... no idea on the thread size. With merc... it can be anything. But, I'm going to guess, 3/8 NPT. If you would have asked a few days ago... I could have pulled one from my engine to measure. But, my boat is fully winterized, and under a wrap.

No... the cable being disconnected won't throw a code. It's an option Merc put in... and seadoo decided to use it. Personally, I don't like automatic things like that. Sure... it will give you a better feel on the steering at low speeds... but I've been driving jet-drives for so long... I am use to it. Besides... if you need a blast of power... just nudge the throttle.

When I installed my engine... I just left it dissconected.


You will need a 4" Blower fan. It's not critical to witch hose it's hooked too. But the Merc engines leave a lot of fumes in the bilge... and I know, on my boat... if I sit for 15 min, or so... and don't run the fan... my engine will start, cough, and die. But, hit the switch, and pull in some fresh air... and she will fire up with just a touch of the key.

 

[Justintime_3]

Okay so heres an update. Thanks to Dr. Honda and all the wonderful people here on the forum she is alive and runs. However I have a couple issues possibly.

The first issue is that it sure does seem like it runs pretty rough. I do not have a video to compare it to so I dont know for sure. But when it is running it just seems to run rough not real smooth. Maybe siomeone can chime in and tell me if its normal or maybe send me a video of theirs running so I can compare the two. It sounds like its running on all cylinders so I am not too worried abiout it yet. Also I have some pretty old gas currently in it so that may be a contributing factor. I need to get it out and run all the premix break in fuel out of it.

The second issue I have is that it is leaking water into the boat where the motor itself and the pump mate together. It seems to be leaking out of both sides. Not enough to sink the boat but its constant. It seems to be getting sucked out by the venturi drain that lays on the bottom. I did have to do a little bit of wiggling when I set the motor down on thepump housing to get everything lined up so that may be the issue, as I may have tweaked the gasket a little. But I also had quite a few gaskets left over when I rebuilt the enginge so possibly thinking I left something out. I did look at the schematic and saw the little O-ring on the pump housing but not 100% sure I got that positioned correctly. Any advice would be helpful. And Thanks again to everyone that helped get her fixed up.

 

[Dr Honda]

1) Rough is relative. It's a 2-stroke... so the idle is not going to be like your car/truck. If it smooth's out above 2000 RPM... then it's probably OK. IF... there is a question about hitting on all the cyl's.... let it idle for a minute or two... and shut it off. Then, touch each of the spark plugs. (Careful to not burn yourself) But, if one of the cyl's aren't firing... the plug will be cold.

2) Not good. You need to lift the engine again, and replace the gasket, and the O-rings. A water leak can cause overheating, and then lead to a melted engine. A small amount of wiggling is fine... but if you were rocking it hard... you could have bent the input shaft, and that could be the source of the vibration.

 

[Justintime_3]

Okay I kind of figured the roughness was typical but wanted a second opinion, I did have it revved up pretty high for a couple quick blurps of the throttle and it def seemed to smooth out. I also ordered a new gasket so I will be replacing that and the motor should come straight up and straight back down so shouldnt be any wiggling to get the splines lined up. Thanks again Dr. Honda. Been a life saver as usual.

 

[Coastiejoe]

One thing i would do before you lift the engine is a compression test.

You got the engine in three boxes and you don't really know how it ran before it sank or if any damaged happened after it sank.

I'd do a compression test just to make sure of where you are..

 

[Justintime_3]

Not sure why I would do a compression test on a completely rebuilt motor just because it has water leaking from where the motor sits on the pump housing. Am I missing something here. I just rebuilt the motor as stated above. Are you assuming there may be a hole in the block or something???

 

[Justintime_3]

So I took the boat out for its maiden voyage this weekend and it didnt sink so thats a good thing. And after replacing the oring and gasket under the powerhead she doesnt leak at all. I did have a problem though. It started up and ran great just idling out of the no wake zone but once I got out to the open water I opened her up and she ran great for about 15 seconds at full throttle. Then she died! She started right back up and idled fine then went to take off at 3/4 throttle and went for about 20 seconds then died. So she started right back up ad I just idled in circles for about ten minutes and she didnt stall but as soon as I open her up she stalls. When it stalls it just kind of spits and sputters, like its running out of gas.
My thinking is a bad fuel filter, I replaced the water seperator filter when I rebuilt the motor but didnt think to replace the filter that comes off of the line directly from the fuel pump. So that one is on order. I know I should prob get a pressure tester to make sure its not a boost pump or something like that but I am just hoping this works. I also read that if the pressure drops below a predetermined pressure that it will shut off the motor completely. Any other suggestions or am I on the right track. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Oh and I also installed a bimini top from Empire covers so now I can sit in the shade in my driveway and have a few cocktails if she doesnt end up running. It seems that I have spent more time just enjoying sitting in the boat in the driveway than on the water lately. Hopefully that will change soon. And the bimini install was a great addition and went together very well.