Is one 951 manifold is a better design?

[68ragtop]

Is one 951 manifold design better?

I found some damage on my exhaust manifold for the RX project while doing my leak tests. In searching for a replacement,
I noticed the original part number #420979607 uses the recessed rubber o-ring style seal. That part number
is superseded by #420979606 which is the gasket style. Is one better than the other, or are they both equally bad

I was planning on replacing it with the original o-ring style seeing it came with it, & I have the new seal, but if the gasket style is less likely to leak, now would be the time to change it.


Here is the original style: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEA-DOO-GTX..._Watercraft_Parts&hash=item1c386eb25f&vxp=mtr


Here is the gasket style: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Seadoo-01-R..._Watercraft_Parts&hash=item4d13c76783&vxp=mtr

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

You mean they made a change after 2002? I wasn't aware of this detail and I'm not sure which is better although no direct experience I kinda like the gasket idea myself.

EDIT: I thought the o-ring came later, so maybe it works better. I'm kinda cornfused but I know they made some changes other than just adding the diaper, so the latest and greatest is probably the most bestest?

 

[68ragtop]

You mean they made a change after 2002? I wasn't aware of this detail and I'm not sure which is better although no direct experience I kinda like the gasket idea myself.

EDIT: I thought the o-ring came later, so maybe it works better. I'm kinda cornfused but I know they made some changes other than just adding the diaper, so the latest and greatest is probably the most bestest?

You are correct!

It does appear the o-ring type was the last used, but when I look up the part number, its superseded with the older style with the gasket. So, wasn't sure if BRP just changed the part number because they ran out of them, or they had problems with the o-ring & replacements are gaskets.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

You are correct!

It does appear the o-ring type was the last used, but when I look up the part number, its superseded with the older style with the gasket. So, wasn't sure if BRP just changed the part number because they ran out of them, or they had problems with the o-ring & replacements are gaskets.

Thinking about this further I think I prefer the o-ring idea b/c it should be more stable using a flat metal flange to flat metal flange clamping system instead of a soft gasket that relaxes as it compresses from heat and vibration cycling?

 

[68ragtop]

That makes good sense too. I would imagine BRP really only cares about these machine in the their first 3-5 years. Especially when they are under warranty. So maybe its possible that as these aged, they just ran out of the parts. Rather than make it unavailable & loose sales they went to the original design to keep the cash coming?

On a side note, Nearly all of the used ones I have looked at have had traces of med strength loctite in the bolt taps. So, it would appear that's what I will do. I can't find any reason not to use it except from the info in the manual.

 

[68ragtop]

Here is my reason for needing to replacing it. While pressurizing the cooling side, I found I had a leak. Got a little nervous when it wasn't found with soapy water. Then I put a gauge on the engine internals I found it bleeding over to the crankcase. I was not happy at all. Took me a while to find this & sure didn't expect it. Looks obvious in the picture, but looking straight at it & seal in place it was invisible. there was a smaller one in the water side too, just couldn't catch it in one photo.

Another senseless crime on an innocent part. This engine has been riddled with stuff like this.......

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

2001 was the switch to the rubber gasket. which, if not destroyed when installed, are actually reusable (Though for the price, why?). the leaking pipes were the original 1997.5-2000 ones which used the 'paper' gasket. I personally prefer the 01+ ones.

there are also a few other 951 changes from the original 97.5 to the last carb 02.

search the forum, I listed all the changes by year a while ago.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I see a crack along the inner flange o-ring groove of the exhaust section there but I don't get how that translates to an inward cooling water leak. I'd be tempted to use lok-tite as well, probably just the blue as you're considering. And yep, may as well use a new o-ring for peace of mind and so you can say you did it right.

 

[Minnetonka4me]

Thats crazy...I would have to say its freeze cracking. Never seen that before!

I do have both types in stock. At least you caught it before installation!

 

[68ragtop]

If I didn't do the pressure tests, I would not have found it. There is another, but smaller crack in the water jacket side. They are actually bent just a little too, & it looks as if something smacked it. Possibly the head pipe? If you look at the picture you can just see how the edge is slightly bent. Didn't catch my attention at all when inspecting the parts.

Many of you saw the head I pulled off this engine. So nothing would surprise me.......

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

If I didn't do the pressure tests, I would not have found it. There is another, but smaller crack in the water jacket side. They are actually bent just a little too, & it looks as if something smacked it. Possibly the head pipe? If you look at the picture you can just see how the edge is slightly bent. Didn't catch my attention at all when inspecting the parts.

Many of you saw the head I pulled off this engine. So nothing would surprise me.......

There are so many way for sins to be committed, a couple I hate are losing the original bolts then threading a substitute SAE fastener always of the wrong length into a metric assembly, leaving parts off such as brackets and shields that would be nice to have, and as you have there, leaving stuff lying around the shop floor and stepping on it, using it as a wheel chock, or running it over with a forklift.

 

[68ragtop]

After what I have been through with the RX project so far, i would have never bought it. It has turned into a money pit. Not because its a DI,
but because everything the previous owner/owners have touched has been butchered. I saw some evidence of this when I first looked at it, but I had no idea how deep the abyss would be. Its a hobby, so its OK, but even as a hobby it starts to get old when stuff like this keeps popping up when I think I had found everything & I have to back up again. The nickel & dime game has been crazy. Other than the case, & a couple of bolt on parts I have replaced everything else in the engine. Even the reeds had loose screws with no loctite & the pedal stoppers were bent way out of spec. I wouldn't let who ever worked on this ski changing a tire for me.

Its stuff like this that makes me frown on powersports that are for sale where the seller says "the engine is rebuilt" To me, I would rather have it tired & unmolested than "rebuilt" (unless they have receipts from a dealer)

 

[racerxxx]

I know I have said this before on the forum but I wouldn't buy a ski if the engine has ever been apart no matter how good the deal is. That is why I hate when guys on CL don't take pics under the seat, I want to see before I even ask a question. That being said, if the engine is locked then it's a moot point cause I know I'm in for everything. The butchery on the cover of the book should have told you it wasn't gonna be a good story, that being said if/when you go to sell it the next guy will have worry free riding and the job will be done right!

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

I take $500 off my offer if you've touched the engine first

 

[jammin777]

boats and water crafts are the worst to buy used period! hang in there ragtop, ill have 3 grand in my ski when all said and done but the end result is i know what i have and i plan on keeping this ski for a while.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

I'll sell you a faster one for $2800

 

[Minnetonka4me]

Watercraft are easily the biggest crapshoot of all the powersports. Every once in a while you get lucky, but more often than not...something has seen water and its only a matter of time.

I always tell people when they ask me what to look for...look for rusted steel hardware. If you see that you know it hasnt been taken care of very well.

LOL and to add to sportsters post...I had a kawi 750 ZXI that had a small hole in the hull. The inside was like brand new. It was a quick flip.

I get a call from the guy a few hours later from the lake and he says the exhaust shook loose and the hull filled with water. I had him bring it back and the previous owner crossthreaded SAE bolts to hold the manifold on. Even worse...they had broke the original studs off deep inside the cylinders, then crossthreaded the SAE bolts into it.

Man...was that a PITA to repair!!

 

[jammin777]

I'll sell you a faster one for $2800

delivered? hehehe j/k, the next ski will be a 787 gtx for the wife. and yea, i know i paid more than i would have if i lived back east but,
i will be Doo'in it this summer for sure. i will say there are zero seadoo's up for sale where i live! well except for a couple over priced junkers that were on craigs list last summer!

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

yea; we'll see... lol.

I don't really want to sell my red set, but who knows. I guess it depends on how much PC work I get this spring...

 

[68ragtop]

I still have my 1995 XP. I went through every inch of it & replaced everything that was questionable. I for sure have more in it than what it is worth. Probably $1500 or more? But, it is the best running ski I have. They all run good, but this one starts the second you touch the button, warm or cold, idles very smooth & doesn't miss a beat. Yes, like all X4's, it bounces on the water like a grasshopper on a superball, but dang its dialed in. I will probably sell it this summer as I don't see it getting used again. It was an extra last year for any friends that wanted to ride & it hardly ever left the dock.

 

[racerxxx]

I still have my 1995 XP. I went through every inch of it & replaced everything that was questionable. I for sure have more in it than what it is worth. Probably $1500 or more? But, it is the best running ski I have. They all run good, but this one starts the second you touch the button, warm or cold, idles very smooth & doesn't miss a beat. Yes, like all X4's, it bounces on the water like a grasshopper on a superball, but dang its dialed in. I will probably sell it this summer as I don't see it getting used again. It was an extra last year for any friends that wanted to ride & it hardly ever left the dock.

Man, a hood decal, seat strap and seat decal and that is all that thing needs. She's puff!

What a balancing act on those sled dollies, LOL.

 

[68ragtop]

Circling around to the pressure testing topic, One thing I thought was strange is the service manual says to pressurize the cooling system to 5psi & see if it holds for 3 minutes. Really??? The cooling chambers should hold pressure for a month IMO. I had an engine that was loosing about a half pound every 20 minutes. Turned out it was leaking into the engine case through the base gasket.

3 minutes & that needle would never have moved. Are they saying a slow leak is ok?

What a balancing act on those sled dollies, LOL.

Dang, Nothing gets past you.... You can have "the car" back now..
that was a bit precarious having it on those

 

[racerxxx]

I don't follow their time line. I like to pressurize, walk away, have lunch, check it, take a break, check it and then cut it loose. Wait as long as you possibly can.

Remember, they're using all new parts, I'd say adjust your time for old used parts.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2

 

[68ragtop]

That makes a lot of sense, especially for wearing crank seals, but on the cooling side? I can't think of anything that should leak at all, so any loss of air over time on the cooling side should be found, would you agree?

 

[racerxxx]

Yep, what if you didn't see the split in your exhaust manifold? That could drop back into the cylinders. I know guys think I'm nuts with the pressure testing but I put what little money I have into getting the best oem parts I can get, the last thing I want is some stupid crack in a water jacket, etc ruining a $400 crank or hydrolocking the engine.

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