? engine relief valve on 717 rotax and a concern on one of the crafts

[gt2003]

I've got a pair of 2002 GTI LE's. While de-winterizing, I hooked up the hose to the crafts, started them first, turned on the water and notice that at the top of the block/head, between the cylinders on the side of the engine, there was water spraying out a bit. I had read where there is a pressure control valve on these. Is this it? It did it on both crafts so that's what I am thinking right now.

Now, a concern on one of the crafts, the seal around the upper part of the block had bulged out in one area and was spraying a bit of water. Is this the head gasket? If so, is it very difficult to replace. Also, any idea why it might do this? I guess I'm asking is it something I need to have a professional check out? Thanks in advance!

 

[LouDoo]

It sounds to me that you need a head gasket. I have owned a 717 for a number of years and have not heard of a pressure relief valve. I think what you are looking at is the temp. sending sensor.

Its not hard to replace the head gasket.

When you flush your ski do not turn the water on full blast, about a 1/4 turn is plenty. Just enough water for the tell tale to flow.

Lou

 

[Minnetonka4me]

When winterizing did you use antifreeze? I know you had a few cold days but I'd have a hard believing you got that kind of freeze damage that far south.

I just took apart a customers motor that got left in MN almost full of water and somehow..there was no damage done.

Maybe take pictures or vid...we can get more specific on how bad it is...

 

[gt2003]

Yes, I did use antifreeze. I followed the manual step by step, clamped hoses, poured it in the intake until I could see it in the drain tube then unclamped. These are very, very small leaks, like when you have a garden hose with high pressure in it and there is a pin prick in the hose so the water squirts out under high pressure. I can literally see the gasket "squeezed out" on one of the doo's. The other I can just barely see/feel the leak.

 

[Minnetonka4me]

did you have the water on full blast? Did the engine stumble?

 

[gt2003]

Yes, I did have the water on full blast. The engine did not stumble. It ran very smoothly.

 

[Minnetonka4me]

Yeah try it again, and just turn it on enough so water comes out the pissers in the back. I bet the problem goes away. The system isnt made for that type of pressure.

The fast that it didnt stumble means hopefully you didnt blow a inner gasket that keeps the cooling out of the motor.

 

[Dr Honda]

You can't over pressurize the engine with the hose. The pressure at full throttle... in the water... is magnitudes higher than the garden hose.

If you have water coming out of the side of the engine... you probably have a cracked jug. Try it again... and find the leak. (Post a pic if you can)


Look for something like this.....

 

[gt2003]

Ok, I'll look and take pictures and post later on this evening. Thanks

 

[gt2003]

GOOD NEWS! I took pictures of the block this morning, below the area where the head gasket seal is. The block looks to be in great condition with no cracks. I'm at work now so will have to wait until this evening to post the pics. I will also take more pics on my way home of the head gasket area to show where the seal has pushed out on the one sea doo and where it is spraying from both of them. Taking pictures is tough as the water jacket impedes where I can get the camera but I'll figure out a way.

So, if it's just the gasket, it's a pretty easy job?

 

[Dr Honda]

If you don't have a crack... it is possible (but not probable) that the big O-rings in the head shell have split. Pop the shell off, and check them.

 

[gt2003]

I'm going to go ahead and replace both of them just to make sure. I've got to get the o-rings and a torque wrench then I'll get after it. I've got a quick question, in the manual it says to use locktite 518 in the o-ring groove of cylinder sleeves. I'm guessing this will be pretty apparent when I pop off the head shell? Is that the only place I use it? Should I use it for the big o-ring or the 2 spark plug o-rings or just around the cylinder sleeves?

Off to take more pics. Please check back, i'll post here in probably 3 hours. Thanks again, Greg

 

[gt2003]

OH CRAP! The pictures don't lie. On BOTH sea-doo's the bottom seal is bulged. Go ahead, lay it on me, HOW BAD IS IT? I don't think this is the top seal, is it?

 

[Minnetonka4me]

That looks like the gasket that goes around the bottom of the head....Someone just didnt take their time to install it right.

Pull the head and that gasket is prob $15-20 at the dealer. You will need a torque wrench to reinstall.

 

[LouDoo]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it looks like the bottom case of the motor is bulging out, especially in the top picture, probably due to freezing. I hope I'm wrong.

P.M. Dr. Honda, see what he thinks.

Lou

 

[gt2003]

Yeah Lou, I was hoping he'd pop in tonight an give me his input. If I don't see a post by him tomorrow then I'll get in touch with him. Thanks!

 

[Dr Honda]

Hi Guys,


Hummmmmm............


Welllllll............... From the first pic, it looks like there is a gap toward the right side of the picture, and the same for the bottom picture. If there isn't a crack... then either the bolts came loose, or they broke because they were over torqued.

Was that engine ever rebuilt?

Regardless... DO NOT RUN THAT ENGINE. Right now, you can probably fix the problem with a few bolts, and a gasket kit. If you keep running it... you will melt that jug and piston.

I would just take the top half apart, and check everything over. Also... look for cracks inside the jug.

 

[gt2003]

Ok, I won't run it. In fact, I'll be taking it to my co-workers husband and have him check it out and put in the new gaskets. I'd rather spend the money now than spend BIG bucks later.

If this was in your shop can you give me a ballpark figure on what it might cost? Keep in mind, we are talking about 2 sea-doo's with the same problem, not just one! Thanks

 

[gt2003]

I didn't answer your question about the engine being rebuilt Dr. Honda. I honestly don't know. We just got both ski's last year so I don't know any history on either of them. Hope that helps.

Cost???

 

[gt2003]

Ok, I've decided to go ahead and replace the gasket myself. But I do have a couple of questions

1. Should I also replace the top o-ring, the o-rings around the spark plugs, both square o-rings on the bottom half and both of the o-rings inside the square o-rings? Or, should I just replace each of the bulging o-rings. I don't mind replacing them all if it's better but I want your honest opinion on whether or not I should. It's the difference between spending $10 on parts or $150 but I'd rather spend $150 once than have to take it apart and put it together again soon.

2. Is the only place I use the loctite anearobic sealmaker on the top side in the o-ring groove around the tops of the pistons? That's the only place I saw it mentioned in my brief scan of the manual. Also, how much do I use?

3. Where should I buy a decent torque wrench and how much is it going to run me?

I think that's all of the questions for now. I appreciate your input. Thanks again

 

[Dr Honda]

If it was my shop... you are looking at probably 3~4 hours ($65/hr) and a top end gasket kit. ($40) So... about $300 per engine.

1) Don't try to pick and chose the gaskets. You can get a "Top End" gasket kit for about $40 retail. That will give you a new base gasket, exhaust gaskets, and all the O-rings for the Head, and head shell. Replace all of them.

2) Yes. It's to help seal the combustion chamber.

3) You can get a good quality wrench at sears. I like craftsman. They are good tools for the money. Sure... Snap-on, or MAC are better... but they are a small fortune.

Just yell if you have any more questions.

 

[gt2003]

If one of the cylinders on each craft has to be replaced how bad is it gonna hurt? I can't tell from the diagram if each cylinder is seperate or if that is one big casting for both cylinders. That project is not one I would be willing to attempt. I'm quite confident I can do the O-rings and replace the cylinder head if need be but the cylinder itself is another story. So, go ahead, give me the news. What am I gonna have to spend on each craft?

Now, I have a question about my AWESOME winterizing job...I "THOUGHT" I followed the manual step by step, pinched off hoses, poured in antifreeze until I saw pink in the clear drainhose on the bottom of the craft then released the clamps. If I recall correctly, the manual says 700 ml's of antifreeze and I think I used far more than that. Any ideas on where I went wrong?

 

[Minnetonka4me]

It could be an optical illusion but I see what Lou is talking about....those cyls looked bulged out Like they froze. I would have a professional look at this and make dang sure they arent.

You sound like you did the job right...about the only thing I do is actually pull the clear line of the exhaust fitting and hold it up. Then when filling it with antifreeze I can watch the level rise. THEN I blow into the clear hose to throughly mix the water and antifreeze, then let it out.

I also shoot air through the various pipe fittings to make sure any water is in the pipe and not the cavities.

 

[gt2003]

BAD, BAD, BAD NEWS! Here are a few pictures. The seals were bulging out only because they followed the cylinder walls! So, I'm going to have to have a cylinder on each ski replaced.....OUCH! The good thing is the water only pushed out the cylinder wall. It didn't compromise the actual piston wall and no water got into the cylinder itself. So, although this is going to hurt very badly, it sounds like it could have been a lot worse.

It's hard to see from the pictures where the bulges were but it's very evident when the head is on. I'm also posting pictures of the inside of the cylinder walls. They are really smooth and these ski's are 2002's! I ran each ski 2-3 minutes with the water hooked up the other day when I discovered the problem and they ran great. Afterward I was concerned that maybe the "freeze" had distorted the cylinder wall and torn up the piston and the cylinder but it looks like I was lucky!

The good thing is I feel fairly confident with the engine now. I've not done much engine work before and was surprised at how easily the top portion came off. I'm even considering breaking down the top part of the engines each season, drying the insides out, lubricating them (I'd fog prior to breakdown) then installing a new top end gasket set at the beginning of the next year. Is this at all feasible? It'd be less than having them winterized, the gaskets would stay fresh and I'd know there wasn't water in the jackets to freeze!

Ok, here are the pics

Sea Doo #1

Look at the right hand side of the top cylinder. It's pushed out a bit. Not a bunch but it's pushed out. I noticed in the picture there is a crack in the metal in the corner (top cylinder, bottom right corner)

Sea Doo #2

Bottom cylinder on the right hand side of the picture. You can barely see where the "natural lines" on the cylinder are pushed out a bit. After seeing the crack in the first one, I checked this one out and there is also a hairline crack in the outside wall in the corner. It just isn't visible in the picture.

Here are some picture of the cylinder heads and walls. How do they look for a 2002 ski?

Ok, that's it. I'm guessing around $400 for each cylinder plus labor. That's gonna smart!

 

[Minnetonka4me]

Those cyl look like crap to be honest...I have a motor here with 240hrs and you can still see the crosshatch.

You can get good used ones a lot cheaper. I just sold my last good pair of 720 cyls for $250. I may have some that need a bore even cheaper.

Did you happen to do the antifreeze then hook up the hose to fog the motor?

I just dont understand how that much water could have still been in those cylinders. They had to have been full of water to do that damage I would think....?

Dr honda was the cyl in your picture full of water?

I had a 97 GSX a few years back literally FULL of water; WB, pipe, engine, waterjackets, EVERYTHING. It had been sunk then sat thru 2 MN winters if I got the owners story right. The cases were cracked, but the cyl only cracked the parts that tie the inner to the outer part.