counterbalance oil type

[kicker]

I am changing my counterbalance shaft oil (1oz) and would like to know if there is a difference in brand or what do you guys have the best success with. My manual only says to use "SAE 30", it does not even say to buy their own brand.

I have some Castrol SAE 30 non detergent in the shop, just want to make sure it is a good enough quality oil for the job. Do they even make a synthetic better quality oil for this? Any feedback would be great.

 

[racerxxx]

Use the Castrol, it calls for SAE 30 so give it that, don't get fancy. I just used Pennzoil HD-30 in mine 787 build. Remember, it made it this long! They use to use XPS-II injection oil(which is Synthetic).

 

[kicker]

Thanks Racer, I know on my 96 you cant even service it, there is no access. So this will be a treat for the 97.

 

[gazza2010au]

i use the 2 smoke oil i use for the engine

 

[Dr Honda]

The oil needed depends on the engine case.


If your engine has the internal fill hole... you need synthetic APT-TC 2-stroke oil. (same as you burn in the engine)

If you have the external fill hole... you need 30wt. The non-detergent 30wt is good... but since it may be in there for the next 10 years... I would feel safer with a synthetic oil.

 

[kicker]

It has the external fill whole, I think it is something I can change annually. Doc, Are you suggestion a synthetic 30wt or a synthetic 2 stroke?

My understanding is that the 787 has a seal by the counterbalance, but also a channel that allows the injection system to send in the counterbalance cavity. This makes no sense to me. Why would you put 30 wt oil in if it is just going to leak out into the crankcase anyways?

The 951 is a different story, it is sealed with no oil from the injection system is able to enter the counterbalance cavity, this is my understanding.

Sorry, Im not looking for a 2 stroke lesson here, but I have not cracked a 787 case open myself and don't understand the logic between the 2 types of oil.

My real question is; is the counterbalance cavity on a 787 with and without an access plug a sealed cavity. Or does the injection system keep the gears oiled?

 

[kicker]

Doc I did another read on your post, I think I got it

Access plug = sealed case - 30 wt oil
No Access = open case - 2 stroke synthetic,

 

[LouDoo]

On a pre 1997's, 787 injection oil is somehow supposed to refill the counterbalance cavity, I don't understand how? So anyway use synthetic injector oil on pre 97's., 97's and on with fill plugs use 30wt.

The real enemy to counterbalance gears is water, so as long as you don't use your SeaDoo for a submarine you should be O.K.

Lou

 

[racerxxx]

There is ZERO transfer of oil at all. No one ever worries when the front end is in the air or under water doing a submarine, or completely sideways after a wreck etc... so that oil is going no where. The early 787 skis used XPS-II (95-96) the later used SAE 30 (97+) You can use SAE 30 in a 95-96 787 there is NO difference what so ever in the case( or the bearings) other then you now have the ability to change the oil, that is it. No black magic, no smoke and mirrors--nothing. There is a Labyrinth seal that will block the oil transfer, there is not enough suction that will draw the oil past, if there was when you would go to change the oil there there would be none. It's pretty straight forward. Could you run synthetic, sure that is what the XPS II is but Bombardier changed it to SAE 30, perhaps they saw some failures, perhaps it's because it is what the bearings SHOULD have been in and it also worked out to be cheaper? If you look at my pic you will see the cast iron piece just in front of the bearing by the CB drive gear. The oil is there for the bearing and to keep the gears lubed. Just use the K.I.S.S. theroy--Keep It Simple Stupid. Sorry to go off on the rant but for me it's easy enough to stick with what is called for.

 

[racerxxx]

Not sure what a Labyrinth seal is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth_seal

 

[Guest_User]

???first I was informed that SBT install`s the oil at assembly, ok fine, got that.
Then many here said the CB bearings get it`s lube from the 2 stroke oil mixture when running,,,
I was also told that the 30wt oil would be burned up/sucked out when running over time and it would be fine bc the 2 stoke oil mixture would still lube the bearings and gear set...

these are 98 787`s...

so what is the real deal with so many confusing reply`s on this topic???

http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?14607-97-787-counterbalance-oil

 

[kicker]

That's great info guys, thanks for the counterbalance cavity lesson. It really wasn't question if I should do what the manual says, it was more that I didn't understand how it actually worked. There is a lot of different info on this out there, much of it conflicting.

Like they say a pic is worth 1000 words, it all makes sense now.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

I submarine mine all time! 2 year no fault warranty

 

[Guest_User]

guys pardon me, I`m not understanding exactly how you get water in that cavity?

 

[racerxxx]

"Someone" fills the cavity whether thru the small hole in the upper case but before you install the jugs or thru the fill hole on the later engines (97+) that is it. Oil does not come from the injection system, it does not come from the Rotary valve cavity, it comes from the bottle the guy pours it from. The later cases still have the early fill hole so when I did my upgrade to add the external fill hole I did nothing else, no need to block anything, the front cylinder has the same hole in the case.

Said in you best Italian accent "It's in dhere" (yes there with a D)

 

[racerxxx]

guys pardon me, I`m not understanding exactly how you get water in that cavity?

There is the potential possibly if the engine ingests water. I've never seen it, I've never filled a ski deep enough, close but not in the carbs!

 

[Guest_User]

"Someone" fills the cavity whether thru the small hole in the upper case but before you install the jugs or thru the fill hole on the later engines (97+) that is it. Oil does not come from the injection system, it does not come from the Rotary valve cavity, it comes from the bottle the guy pours it from. The later cases still have the early fill hole so when I did my upgrade to add the external fill hole I did nothing else, no need to block anything, the front cylinder has the same hole in the case.



Said in you best Italian accent "It's in dhere" (yes there with a D)

is this small hole then closed off after cylinder jug assembly? what keeps the oil in there?

Thanks bc there is conflicting reports of this topic...
So I should have an ounce of 30 wt in the cavity from the new sbt rebuild. I`m guessing after 21 hours on the engines I should check.
I don`t think there is a drain in the bottom but will look...

There is the potential possibly if the engine ingests water. I've never seen it, I've never filled a ski deep enough, close but not in the carbs!

gotcha, thanks... I don`t think I have to worry about that unless there is a disaster. the boat for the most part is pretty dry...

 

[racerxxx]

You can see the small holes in the corners where the jugs would sit, so there is noting to block it but it would be really hard to suck the oil from the cavity, it's tight in the cavity, plus the diameter of the hole is so small. Think about drinking from a McDonalds fatty straw and then drink from a coffee stirrer (swizzle stick I like to call em'). Or the old joke about a whore sucking a golf ball thru a garden hose-- you get the point, it's ain't gonna be easy. The case in the pictures is a later case, the RFI cases still have the holes too. I think were all over engineering it, lets just put 1oz.(30ml?) SAE 30 in and call it a day!

Stolen image from Ebay

 

[Guest_User]

You can see the small holes in the corners where the jugs would sit, so there is noting to block it but it would be really hard to suck the oil from the cavity, it's tight in the cavity, plus the diameter of the hole is so small. Think about drinking from a McDonalds fatty straw and then drink from a coffee stirrer (swizzle stick I like to call em'). Or the old joke about a whore sucking a golf ball thru a garden hose-- you get the point, it's ain't gonna be easy. The case in the pictures is a later case, the RFI cases still have the holes too. I think were all over engineering it, lets just put 1oz.(30ml?) SAE 30 in and call it a day!

Stolen image from Ebay

Thanks Dan, well that`s what I do not know. I`m only told there was oil installed during assy and based on the warranty, trusted the source etc. now that there is 21 hours on each engine, I guess I should loosen the fill plug and have a look sometime before the engines go back in.
There doesn`t appear to be any drain plug, what would be the best way to remove the oil?, and man I`m hoping there is still oil in the cavity and nothing ugly...

 

[LouDoo]

Pale Rider,

Here's a thread about changing counterbalance oil, it's for a 951 but it's pretty much the same for a 787.

Lou

 

[Guest_User]

Pale Rider,

Here's a thread about changing counterbalance oil, it's for a 951 but it's pretty much the same for a 787.

Lou

Thanks Lou :thumbsup:, link?

 

[LouDoo]

Sorry, I guess I had a brain fart.

http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?36426-Changing-Crankcase-Oil-947-951-engine

Lou

 

[racerxxx]

Guys, sorry if I sounded snarky in my posts I didn't mean to.

Here is where I put my drain, yours from the factory SHOULD come out the back--look below mine and you'll see the boss cast into the case. When I was looking to put mine in I noticed that where they have the boss is a hair above the bottom of the cavity(coming in from the back). So me being anal said, Oh no I want all the oil out and I put mine in the bottom. I also added a 90 and a short pipe nipple and a cap so I don't have to dig around to find it.

 

[Guest_User]

Guys, sorry if I sounded snarky in my posts I didn't mean to.

Here is where I put my drain, yours from the factory SHOULD come out the back--look below mine and you'll see the boss cast into the case. When I was looking to put mine in I noticed that where they have the boss is a hair above the bottom of the cavity(coming in from the back). So me being anal said, Oh no I want all the oil out and I put mine in the bottom. I also added a 90 and a short pipe nipple and a cap so I don't have to dig around to find it.

ahhh ok! Thanks!
I felt around the bottom quickly and didn`t feel any type of plug, tomorrow I`ll investigate and see if there is one in the side below yours!:cheers:

Lou, I do have an oil syringe, all else fails I`ll do that, thanks...:thumbsup:

 

[racerxxx]

ahhh ok! Thanks!
I felt around the bottom quickly and didn`t feel any type of plug, tomorrow I`ll investigate and see if there is one in the side below yours!:cheers:

Lou, I do have an oil syringe, all else fails I`ll do that, thanks...:thumbsup:

Andy,

In this pic you will see a blue plug, this is where your drain will be, not on the bottom where mine is. I'm almost positive that all 787's with the drains comes out in this location.

And you can see it here too