counterbalance oil type

[kicker]

Here is what it looks like on the 97 787, the alan bolt faces the back of the ski, it does not face the bottom of the hull.

My 2000 is the same, so the 98 should be similar as well. Sorry for the thumb in the pic, I have a hard time taking pictures and chewing gum at the same time.

 

[Guest_User]

Andy,

In this pic you will see a blue plug, this is where your drain will be, not on the bottom where mine is. I'm almost positive that all 787's with the drains comes out in this location.

And you can see it here too

Here is what it looks like on the 97 787, the alan bolt faces the back of the ski, it does not face the bottom of the hull.

My 2000 is the same, so the 98 should be similar as well. Sorry for the thumb in the pic, I have a hard time taking pictures and chewing gum at the same time.

Thanks fella`s!:cheers:
my engines are out and on the garage floor in a tray. I`ll pray some oil does come out when I pull the drain plug...

There wasn`t many choices in straight 30W. I wound up getting Supertech HD30, the only other option was QS...sigh...

 

[kicker]

Thanks fella`s!:cheers:
my engines are out and on the garage floor in a tray. I`ll pray some oil does come out when I pull the drain plug...

There wasn`t many choices in straight 30W. I wound up getting Supertech HD30, the only other option was QS...sigh...

Some how after all that we made it full circle...............back to the original point which was the type of oil to use.

Well done all and thanks for so much input, it was very informative.

Racer, you can rant on my thread anytime, its worth it. LOL :thumbsup:

 

[Guest_User]

Some how after all that we made it full circle...............back to the original point which was the type of oil to use.

Well done all and thanks for so much input, it was very informative.

Racer, you can rant on my thread anytime, its worth it. LOL :thumbsup:

Dan - Racerxxx is a Good dude!:thumbsup: he def knows his salt!:cheers:

Thanks kicker for the thread!:cheers:

 

[Guest_User]

oop there it is! :lol:

plus cut up a few blocks of wood to hold the engines up while I drain the oil...

 

[racerxxx]

Pale,

Drain it into a cup and try to measure it. You also have way to much time on your hands, nice stands--first class!

And I just couldn't resist one of my favorite movie scenes EVER!

[video=youtube;4prqDn7QS8I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4prqDn7QS8I[/video]

 

[Guest_User]

Pale,

Drain it into a cup and try to measure it. You also have way to much time on your hands, nice stands--first class!

And I just couldn't resist one of my favorite movie scenes EVER!

[video=youtube;4prqDn7QS8I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4prqDn7QS8I[/video]

hahahahaha, man we forget those oldies but goodie movies! :lol:

ok, this is weird!!! removed the drain plug and nothing came out!!! now looking into the gear from the fill plug there is oil on each tooth, and as you spin the engine by hand you can see oil on the gears, but nothing came out... ok onto engine number 2, same thing, no oil drained from either engine! The gears in engine number 2 are also wet with oil...

sooo, after cleaning the drain plugs, applied some thread sealer ans reinstalled the plugs, then added just under 1 ounce of HD30W to each engine... Now you can def see the gears picking up the oil, but you can not see the level. even the counter weight on the gear is not wet...

my question is, even tho there was minimal oil in there as evidence of oil on the gear teeth as it rotates, where did the majority of the oil go???

the engines are sitting as if installed in the boat, I even titled the engine rearward and nothing came out... weird...

 

[kicker]

It is possible for the oil to leak through the seals over time, if your ski has 100-200 hours on it that would be my guess why it is low.

Now to be sure that it was low and you have not over filled it with another ounce of oil, I would drain it again to make sure the ounce that you put in there actually comes out. If it doesn't come out there is something that is blocking your drain. It is just as bad to have too much oil as it is not having enough oil.

 

[Guest_User]

It is possible for the oil to leak through the seals over time, if your ski has 100-200 hours on it that would be my guess why it is low.

Now to be sure that it was low and you have not over filled it with another ounce of oil, I would drain it again to make sure the ounce that you put in there actually comes out. If it doesn't come out there is something that is blocking your drain. It is just as bad to have too much oil as it is not having enough oil.

good idea... I could see the lower gear thru the drain plug hole... so I don`t think it`s plugged... there are only 21 hours on both engines... who really knows if SBT accurately put in 1 ounce? it is def wet inside, but makes sense to pull the drain plug again and see if what I put in comes out... Thanks...

 

[kicker]

Not sure if you did this or not, but one other thing is to make sure the fill cap is off when draining the oil so air can get in while the oil drains.

 

[Guest_User]

Not sure if you did this or not, but one other thing is to make sure the fill cap is off when draining the oil so air can get in while the oil drains.

yes of course! :lol:
you can see the engine/boat build link in my sig :lol:

I did confirm with SBT that they did install oil in the CB cavity prior to installing them in the boat.

 

[kicker]

Sorry, I wasn't questioning if you knew to do that, its just one of those simple things that sometimes can be forgotten while doing a routine task. It happens to me all the time. Kinda like putting the milk in the cupboard and the glass in the fridge, or trying to start the seadoo for 20 minutes and finally remember that you took the battery out. Not that I have ever done that. LOL

I have been following your build, a stand up job I must say.

 

[1995hx]

You guys do know the counter balance oil in a 787 is just there for the initial start up. Its burned out the first time you wale on the throttle. Its completely different on a 951 its like a bath on a 951.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

[kicker]

my understanding that is only pre 96. In 97 (for the 787) they installed the fill screw and drain so it could be sealed from the crankcase and fresh oil put in every 50 hrs. I could be wrong, my manual is not specific on how it actually gets lubed.

 

[Guest_User]

my understanding that is only pre 96. In 97 (for the 787) they installed the fill screw and drain so it could be sealed from the crankcase and fresh oil put in every 50 hrs. I could be wrong, my manual is not specific on how it actually gets lubed.

lol kicker, it`s all good! I knew what you were trying to say, and yeah :lol: I`ve been delirious at times especially after to many hours in the garage surviving on coffee and the smell of chemicals :lol: and second guessing myself if I set the carb screws to what I wanted... then finding myself doing it again to be sure...


about what 95hx said, I too thought it got burned up and was used for initial start up, and also thought that the gas/oil mix in the crankcase lubed the CB bearings/gears afterwards. This thread has cleared up a few questions and myths. Dan had also mentioned that it would be difficult and very long for the 30W oil to be sucked out thru that small fill hole in the cylinder base.
I`m just trying to get to the bottom of all this... yes I`m aware the 951 has a dedicated section of the case for the CB oil as stated in the shop service manual.

my challenger 1800 manual isn`t to clear on the system as well. just a page that illustrated 30ml/1 ounce of oil upon assembly.
I have not come across the part that says to change every 50 hours...
Just thought it was a good idea to check while the engines are out.

well the cavity on mine was not bone dry, so if the myth that it gets sucked out is the deal, then @ 21 hours approx 90% of the oil is gone...

 

[LouDoo]

For such a simple question this thread has become pretty complex, to say the least.

I tried to make a point way back in post #8 about the oil cavity on pre 97 787's somehow getting replenished with injector oil, that's why BRP specifies using injector oil in the counterbalance cavity. I pretty much got shot down. Fact is I was told this by someone who knows these engines much better than I do. To tell the truth I have never rebuilt one from scratch, preferring to buy a rebuilt engine from SBT. So I'm really no expert.

I'm not trying to start any arguments but just for my own edification I would like to know if this is true and if it is, exactly how if gets refilled. The only way I could see this happening is from the drip feed that lubes the rotary valve gear.

Merry Christmas

Lou

 

[racerxxx]

Straight from the manual from my Speedster. Sorry I had to do it as an attachment I couldn't figure out how to embed it into the post, sorry. If someone wants to embed it please do or tell me how to do it and I'll fix it. It clearly states the IF the engine has been water flooded water MAY have been trapped in the balance shaft gear and bearing cavity. They then go on to tell you to check the oil to make sure it's good/bad. so if there is no oil in there why would they tell you to check the oil? And then proceed to tell you to REPLACE the oil????

Now if you look at a picture of the cases you'll see that the case where the crank is also has a low spot, could that be holding your missing oil, possibly, but it does look like it SHOULD drain back down into the cavity. The other thing to think about is this, IF that oil were to be drawn out of that cavity what is going to replenish it? There are no lines, or passages that go to it. I've done three complete tear downs and rebuilds of 787's all three have been the same. And the way the two stroke works is the gas and oil enter the case and are sucked up through the transfer ports in the cylinder walls and into the combustion chamber and the mist will coat the bearings, so it's not like the gas and oil is going to pass to the far reaches of the rear of the case through a labyrinth washer go around a gear to lube those bearings. What happens to bearings with no oil? KABOOM! There has to be oil in there. Also if the oil was going to be sucked into the engine, why would Bombardier install two seals on the CB shaft if they knew the oil would get sucked into the engine, honestly, think about it? And look at the bottom case of mine(bottom pic top left cavity in the case), see the shit stain in the CB cavity, that was from the pitch black oil that was in there from 96. Yet another thing, the MAG end of the CB shaft has a permanently lubed SEALED bearing (orange seals on mine), why wouldn't Bombardier just put them on both ends of the shaft, if the oil is going to be sucked away? You have to remember 1 oz of oil ain't shizz, the bottom race of a bearing has a lip and could hold oil in there, oil also can transfer through the end bearing and get trapped between the end crank seal and the bearing too. That end crank seal needs lube too, the PTO is rotating on that seal at 7K, rubber and steel don't mix well with out lube, no place to put grease on the seal? So 1 oz. can get dispersed quickly. But when flinging around off the gears there's enough to coat/mist bearings, gears and seals to keep them alive. I'm not trying to be a PITA about this just trying to shed some light on it. It is truly amazing how deep a thread can get on such an easy question about what oil.

View attachment Oil.pdf

Now here are my cases for my 787, the red crank seals(in the center of the crank) seal the R/V from leaking into the crankcase. We all know when the seals leak the ski's smoke really bad and can really drink the oil, so the oil doesn't transfer that way, there are no lines that go back to the balance shaft and no internal passages either. We also know there is an in and an out oil line for the R/V shaft.

Bottom case, No oil passages.

In this pic you can see the oil line on the CB gear. The clean gray spot is where the oil covered the gear and the brown is light rust from siting with no oil

 

[1995hx]

I was told by many respectable engine builders including Bill oneil that the gear and the rear bearing is lubed by the gas oil mix.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

[racerxxx]

I can respect that, but mechanically from an engineering stand point I just don't see how it's possible with all the mechanical interference. Now I want to go check my Speedster but she's wrapped up for the winter.

 

[1995hx]

To be honest I put oil in mine about once every other month I have it tapped for a pipe fitting with a barbed end and have a hose on that and put 10w30 or similar in it that way. Honestly if you never swamp the engine you should never have a issue. I have sunk my hx twice now so thats why I have it setup like that.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

I want to see what you guys think of this: I spoke with a reputable engine builder who specializes in Rotax. He told me that there was a TSB some years back where seadoo claimed that this whole gear cavity (for the CB shaft) needs to be filled with synthetic GREASE. NOT OIL, GREASE. I've scowered the web for an hour looking for these TSBs, but was unable to find them. Now this concept baffles me somewhat but then again, isn't that what gears and bearings love the most? Also, there is no way it can get sucked out or leak out of any of the holes. Here's a FUN FACT: the labyrinth washer LEAKS!! Prove it to yourself, assemble your crank case and fill it with 30ml of oil. Wait until the next day and I promise you, you will see oil at the bottom of the PTO crankshaft. It will fill that space to the point where your crank counterweights will get coated in the stuff. I think I'm going to tap my case with a fill and drain plugs just in case and put a plug up top. I suppose if it came down to it later, I can put a grease fitting in place, but the best time to put grease in is when the cases are apart.

Now to counter that theory, someone said that once the fuel/oil mix gets in the cb cavity, it'll dissolve that grease some, which will then make it out into the crank cavity, get sucked up and burned, but not all the way. These leftovers are said to get on and STICK the rings.

So my question to you all is have you ever heard of or seen this in action? Where are SeaDoo TSBs located anyway??

 

[kicker]

Never heard of anyone using grease. TSB is that a service bulletin?

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Yes it is, but I can't find anywhere where TSBs are displayed to the public

 

[mikidymac]

Ok, after reading all of this and looking at the pictures and years of experience let me give you my opinion. Take it or ignore it.

1. As we can see in the pictures provided the lower cases the PTO end is open to the crank and balancer so the gears can mesh. Agreed?
Also the oil/fuel mixture that lubes the 2 PTO end crank bearings is also open to lube the PTO end of the counter balancer bearing as previously mentioned these areas are open so the gears can mesh. Also remember this is a Lay_Down RAVE engine so the counter balancer is somewhat at a low spot. If you take a 2 stroke apart that has been sitting you will always have some residual oil in the bottom that is left over after the gas evaporates so there is some oil in there.

2. As we can see from the pictures the MAG end of the cases the crank bearings and balancer shaft are sparated by casting material on the upper and lower cases so it is separated from the MAG end of the crankshaft. Agreed?
The MAG end countershaft bearing is a sealed bearing so it does not need any lube and it is separated from the PTO end by the seal on the counterbalancer shaft seal so this cavity never sees any lube.

3. Why the switch to the drain and fill plug in 1997? As we know, it is possible to fill these engines with water, just let a plus size novice borrow your 1997 XP, trust me it happens. As we said in point 1 this counterbalancer areas are open to the crank on the PTO side so when you flood an engine and get water into the cylinders it will flow into the crank area and then into the counterbalancer cavity as it is the low point, remember? Up until the drain plug there was no way to verify if this water was in the cavity hence the drain plug. The addition of the fill plug is in my opinion was way to add some oil to help wih the removal of the water and get some lube on the counterbalancer bearing until the water is burned off from riding the ski. Cheap insurance if you will. The only other way to check for water contamination on the 1995-1996 is to split the cases, my gusee is seadoo did not like the warranty claims. If I recall the removal of the drain plug and filling of oil was suggested in the manual under what to do if water is ingested. But I forget a lot of things now days.

This is long but I hope it clears things up once and for all as far as how the system works. 1 oz of oil is not going to hurt anything. If you flood the 1995-1997 it is a crap shoot if your counterbalancer will survive a week or 10 years. If you have it apart add some oil when you put it back together. If you have a 1997+ change the oil once a year or any time the engine is flooded, it can't hurt anything.

Go and ride the darn things already. Above all have fun.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Labyrynth washer does not keep the fuel/air charge separated to the PTO side of the crank case. It, in fact, allows fluids right past itself. It's just a giant washer really, and I can't say I really know why it's there. The only thing that keeps the charges from mixing are those two little rubber seals around the CB shaft itself. So basically, you're saying that the vaporized oil that is being aspirated by the motor is enough to lubricate those gears/bearings? I have a hard time believing that enough oil can not only accumulate on the races/mesh, but stay there and be replenished at a rate enough to keep up with wear/movement.