Blue smoke, Runs Rough - Blowing oil?

[Linescreamer]

I'm new here, so don't beat me up too bad. :thumbsup: I have what I think is a 95 Seadoo GTX Bullshark to get back on the water. It has the Bombadiar Rotax 2 cyl, with separate oil and fuel tanks. It is running now but blows smoke and runs rough. I know this thing has been worked on by multiple shops and has yet to run right. My question -> how is the oil metered into the cylinders? I see what looks like an inline oil filter. It does idle and has compression on both cylinders. I didn't take a compresion test yet and just ran it for a few minutes to see if I could clear out the cylinders. What would your next step be? The plugs came out wet and dark and as stated the exhaust is blue/gray smoke. I know cars but not these 2 stokers and woundering if this level of smoke is normal and the carbs are just shot?? The oil is green?? Very strange to me but I'm guessing it's a boat thing. Thanks

 

[Seadoobuddy]

I would first check the compression. If the rings are bad .. Check it then repost your findings. I think they should be around 130 PSI.

 

[LouDoo]

Hi and welcome to the SeaDoo forum.

I'll try to answer at least some of your questions. The injection oil is metered through an oil pump, at full throttle you are running approximately 40:1, and it is direct oil injection.

If your oil is blue/green in color your are running the wrong oil, you should be using API-TC rated oil. I think your ski has the 657 engine so you can run mineral or synthetic blend oil. Not sure what state or where warren is but if you have a Super Walmart you can get Quicksilver PWC oil in the silver bottle, be sure you get API-TC rated.

As far as your engine smoking, 2-strokes will smoke at startup, but should clear up in a minute or so. First use the correct oil and see if it still smokes. You need to drain the oil that's in your ski, before adding the correct oil, and bleed the system.

As above it would be a good idea to get the compression to know the general condition of the engine. 150psi is perfect, 135 and above is O.K., below 130 you are looking at a top end rebuild, and at 120 the engine will run but will not have power. Take the compression with the engine cold, throttle open, remove the spark plugs and ground the spark plug caps. Turn the engine over and watch for the peak compression.

That's about it for now, anymore questions just ask.

One more thing are you running the ski on the trailer or in the water?

Lou

 

[Linescreamer]

On the trailer with water hose running into the head. So I got the wrong oil in there? Hummm. I'll get the compression numbers and come back. I am in central NJ. Thanks!

 

[Bills86e]

Observerve if you have grey "tempo" fuel lines.

 

[LouDoo]

You may already know this, when you run the ski on a hose, start the motor then turn on the hose, turn off the hose then turn off the motor. Try not to run the motor more than 5mins. on the hose.

Also I've seen bad motors run good on the trailer and good motors run bad. The true test is in the water.

Lou

 

[Seadoobuddy]

Seadoolou - Last week I replaced all my gray fuel lines as mentioned before. When I tested for leaks on the hose I ran another hose and sprayed water into the grate towards the impeller and it ran quieter.
Is that a good idea? Of course I only ran it for a minute or so.

 

[LouDoo]

Probably not a bad idea, you're loading the impeller somewhat so you're not going to hear the rattle as bad. One of the problems with running the ski on the hose is the carbon seal is not getting any cooling water, and the only way to get water to the carbon seal is if the ski is in the water.

That was really a long sentence, I hope my High School English teacher isn't reading this.

Lou

 

[Seadoobuddy]

2 sentences, and the last one had a comma in it so I think you safe from your former teacher......LOL

OK stupid question #xx....Isn't the carbon sealed in a boot, if so then how does it get water?

Can't Tony aka Dr Honda invent a watertight muffler that could be placed under the grate (larger in size of course) with a hose connection. Similar to the one I use on my I/O Mercrusier.
Or is one on the market already????

 

[Linescreamer]

OK. Here we go! This thing has been abused by many back yard mechanics it's not funny. The hull was full of oil and water. Cleaned that up and then last night the fuel tank started leaking down and filled the hull with 2" of raw fuel. Pulled the plugs for a compression test, cranked the engine over without plugs first. The back cylinder shot fuel up into the air about 10 feet! After a few cranks and soaked paper towels, did the compression test. One cylinder at a time, throtle full open and cranked until the guage wouldn't go any higher. Max readings on both cylinders was around 90psi. Based on the stripped bolt heads, hull full of everything, I'm not sure what else is up with this thing. :willy_nilly: Did I mention...it already had a carb rebuild, and a new fuel tank for $500 before a family member asked for help. I guess he was tiered of getting the shaft so to speak. And yes, it's still got the crap gray fuel lines (with original crimp clamps) which I told him to replace 3 years ago. Well I'm soaked with fuel at the kitchen table writing this as the wife is thinking of leaving me. :hurray: No really, what would you guys do? Is it worth the time and money at this point? I can do the rebuild but not sure what this will cost. Lost in NJ......

 

[Seadoobuddy]

There is a recall on gas tanks. My 96 GTX wasn't affected, I think all 15 gallon tanks are not under the recall. Follow this thread for more info. http://www.seadooforum.com/showthre...all-on-older-models&highlight=gas+tank+recall
Call seadoo with your vin number to verify yours.

As others will agree 90 psi is too low. I assume you have the 787 engine
Yes, change the fuel lines.

Others will chime in about the oil/gas out of the plug holes.

 

[brock1]

ok first of all the low compression reading could be from the guage getting full of oil in the cylinder and not giving an accurate rerading sooo before you get compression readings we need to fix the oil problem. That much oil in the cylinders can only be 2 things ...either your center crankshaft bearings are bad or your Rotary valve seal is bad...... thats all that would be letting the oil get into the cylinders. One way to test it is to pull the plugs out and crank it over till all the oil is out of the cylinder and then let it sit for a few hours and do it gain if more oil comes out the seals are bad.... after cranking it over for a while and all the oil is somewhat out try to get another compression reading and let me know....

 

[LouDoo]

If 90psi is correct the engine is not going to run, if you have loose head bolts that could be the problem. I would go ahead and pull the head and see what the pistons and jugs look like. It also sounds like you need a new crank, because the crank seals are shot. You might be better off to get a replacement engine. You should have a 657 engine you can check with SBT or Full Bore on the cost of a rebuilt engine. To be honest it's going to be more than the ski is worth. But on the positive side you'll have a ski with a new motor.

You should be able to by a mid to late 90's ski for around $1,500-1,800. You could probably get enough to buy another ski by parting yours out, of course you have the hassle of taking the old one apart and selling the parts.

It really comes down to how handy you are and how much time you have to devote to this project, personally what I would do is sell the ski you have as is, probably get 300-500 and use the money toward another ski.

I guess another question is what is the rest of the ski like, cosmetically and mechanically?

Lou

 

[Linescreamer]

Thanks guys. Lou. Yes, it's a 657 and it was running, not smooth but running and idleing (with blue smoke), the other day. The hull and other mechanicals look fine. The rear cylinder was spitting out fuel not oil. I would say about 4 oz. was in there total, from the prior day after the engine was running and we shut it down. However, we did shut the engine off first and then the water. :banghead: The compression test was run after the cylinders were blown out, and nothing was comming out of the plug holes when cranking except a very fine mist. Any way the carbs could be leaking fuel into it while sitting over night?

 

[Thorgtx]

Have you tried it on the water yet? I have 94 GTX with the same engine that I put new pistons and rings in last year. After getting it back together it would start and idle fine, but would sputter and spit gas out of the carbs at high RPM. After many conversations on this site, someone recommended just trying it on the water. Guess what, it ran perfectly in the water. I would put the airbox back on and test it in the water, you may get lucky.

 

[brock1]

sounds like the flooats are sticking if its just fuel in the cylinders and not oil..... but just because it smells like gas dosent mean that all of it is gas it could be a combination of both ....hence the smoking you have!!! But as for the fuel in the cylinders...take off the carbs and go through them one more time....when the carb rebuild was done did you use an aftermarket kit or an OEM kit. But i read in your last post that only one cylinder is shoting gas/oil out of it is that correct? if so then i would lean more towards a carb problem but for the smoking issue YES you have the wrong oil in it get some API-TC low ash 2 stroke oil and see if it makes a difference.... verify the setttings on the oil pump also ....if you have dark plugs your running rich which leads me to believe your oil injections is set wrong.... as for the compression its low and im surprised its even running you need a top end take off the head and see what the pistons and cylinders look like you may get lucky and only need rings

 

[LouDoo]

I'm giving you this advise like a father to son. Before you put any more money into this ski you need to find out why the compression is so low. Rebuilt carbs. stuck floats are not going to help if the engine is worn out. The only way you are going to find out is to pull the head.

Lou

 

[brock1]

I'm giving you this advise like a father to son. Before you put any more money into this ski you need to find out why the compression is so low. Rebuilt carbs. stuck floats are not going to help if the engine is worn out. The only way you are going to find out is to pull the head.

Lou

i believe thats what i said at the end of my post.......

 

[LouDoo]

You also told him to rebuild the carbs, check the oil pump, none of that is going to make a difference if the engine is shot and replacing the engine may not be an option. If you read the previous posts you should know this.

Lou

 

[brock1]

YOU ARE CORRECT i did tell him that he should "go through the carbs one more time" not rebuild them again!!! ...... I still think that his low reading is from the oil/gas in the cylinder and the guage is not getting an accurate reading...... But thats ok im sorry to have mislead you LINESCREAMER lou can take over from here he is much more knowledgeable than I.....................

 

[Linescreamer]

Thanks to all of you for your replys! Especialy Brock and Lou! I'm not new to engines by any means. I was a mechanic for GM back in the 80s. I have rebuilt my share of muscle cars, and other gas, deisel engines from crank bearings to injectors. I am also a certified tranny tech. That said, I haven't worked on these 2 strokers and know enough to be dangerous. As suggested before on this site, there are many unique aspects to each of these engines that can cause strange stuff to happen and may even lead to a misdiagnosis. I priced a replacement 657 and with card kits, oil block kit, delivery and all - it's around $800 to get this thing in new working order. Not bad. I'm not going forward until I'm sure the cylinders are in a low compression condition. I was also told that if I had the water running after the engine is shut down, it could have wipped the oil out of the cylinders, the carbs could also have leaked down and caused poor sealing of the rings. Pulling the heads off will give me a visual but, I can't take a compression reading with my eyes! Brock stated he was surprised it was even running with 90 psi cylnders. I here ya; and it was running strong! That's what puzzles me. Before I drop $800 and a weekend on this seadoo for my son, I'm gonna be sure the engine is toast. Thanks for the input guys! :hurray:

 

[LouDoo]

90psi is 45 to 50 psi under normal compression, nothing you can do to the carbs., etc. is going to bring it up to over 135psi. However you might want to check your gauge, or test it with another gauge.

Another thing you could do is remove the carbs., this would be the same a WOT, and draw maximum air into the cylinders.

Lou

 

[brock1]

i really really really really really really wasnt saying anything about messing with the carbs to bring the compression up im not that stupid but i still feel that his compression is not really at 90 and still runnning thats why i suggested the things i did .......

 

[470]

Having oil in the cylinders will make your gauge read higher as it's helping the rings seal and giving you a false reading. Check compression dry then add 1 teaspoon of 2s oil to both sides and check again. If there is a vast improvement I would suspect the rings are gone.

 

[Linescreamer]

Well I checked it again today. First pulled the plugs and blew out the cylnders. Nothing came out. Put the gauge back on and only 90-93 PSI each. Pulled the head and did the visual inspection. Cylnder walls looked fine. Piston heads a little black (as expected) and they had a little side play. Meaning when I pushed the piston heads side to side they moved a bit (maybe 1/8"). The top ring was visible and looked normal. There didn't appear to be any leakage on the head gasket. What do you guys think?