Terrible vacation with my doo

[jammin777]

i got my new rv valve in the mail that i no longer need lol

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Are you sure the tension isn't enough to push the rave fully down? I don't see any way the bellows could be installed upside down, that doesn't seem possible.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

i got my new rv valve in the mail that i no longer need lol

And since you have a spare you'll never need it.

 

[jammin777]

yes im sure and noway to install it wrong as it is fully seated correctly top and bottom with the spring bands in place.

 

[jammin777]

When I take my caps off, those things go flying across the bilge if I'm not careful, then they roll under the motor. In a ski they probably go right in the water or across the garage.

wow ok then yours must be a hell of a lot stronger than mine, i don't have to be so careful with mine, sounds like i'm in the road to success. this has been a huge help! thanks.

 

[68ragtop]

We should see if we can summons [MENTION=59978]kicker[/MENTION], or some other RFI guys in here to see if they have some ideas on why they are staying up. Sounds like possibly/hopefully the wrong springs. From what I see the RFI is unique using the positive side of the case pulses to open the valves rather than exhaust pressure. IT makes sense though. An EFI system can't detect the changes when the valves open like a carb can. So the mpem controls it (well, its supposed too anyway )

 

[Strizzo]

We should see if we can summons [MENTION=59978]kicker[/MENTION], or some other RFI guys in here to see if they have some ideas on why they are staying up. Sounds like possibly/hopefully the wrong springs. From what I see the RFI is unique using the positive side of the case pulses to open the valves rather than exhaust pressure. IT makes sense though. An EFI system can't detect the changes when the valves open like a carb can. So the mpem controls it (well, its supposed too anyway )

The 951 controls the raves in the same way. That has me wondering if you could convert the 800 carb skis to electronically controlled raves with a rpm window switch.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

The 951 controls the raves in the same way. That has me wondering if you could convert the 800 carb skis to electronically controlled raves with a rpm window switch.

Yes, physically you can convert either way. Some guys drill the hole in the 951 RAVE base to connect to the existing exhaust port passage so they can eliminate the RAVE solenoid setup.

Going the other way, the MPEM probably isn't programmed to energize a solenoid but there might be other ways of accomplishing that? And you have to install a pressure port on the RAVE, after blocking the exhaust passage. Might be able to swap out the RAVE base to accomplish this but not sure.

 

[jammin777]

so i just received my rave valve springs today and were exactly the same as the old ones! still not strong enough to push the raves closed. so after banging my head against the wall several times, i remembered i saved the old rave bellows as they are still in good condition so i popped one of them in and and what do you know? it is more flexible and now the springs are closing them down! just so you know the new ones are sbt. never again! junk! too stiff! so beware! i'm going to try it out on the lake tomorrow and let you know how she runs.

 

[68ragtop]

I'm always impressed with your patience. I would have pulled the bottom springs & tested it that way the next day if possible.

I would imagine those springs have a pretty delicate as case pressure to open them isn't going to be all that high. No question that open valves will effect the way it runs, so unless you have multiple things going on, I'm pretty confident you found your problem. This for sure has something to do with it.

I would guess kicker has worked on these valves too. Not sure if he has been on the forum recently or not, but I know he wrenches on the RFI's

 

[Strizzo]

Yes, physically you can convert either way. Some guys drill the hole in the 951 RAVE base to connect to the existing exhaust port passage so they can eliminate the RAVE solenoid setup.

Going the other way, the MPEM probably isn't programmed to energize a solenoid but there might be other ways of accomplishing that? And you have to install a pressure port on the RAVE, after blocking the exhaust passage. Might be able to swap out the RAVE base to accomplish this but not sure.

just install the gasket "wrong" and block the passage.

 

[jammin777]

I'm always impressed with your patience. I would have pulled the bottom springs & tested it that way the next day if possible.

I would imagine those springs have a pretty delicate as case pressure to open them isn't going to be all that high. No question that open valves will effect the way it runs, so unless you have multiple things going on, I'm pretty confident you found your problem. This for sure has something to do with it.

I would guess kicker has worked on these valves too. Not sure if he has been on the forum recently or not, but I know he wrenches on the RFI's

i was about to pull the bottom springs but sportster raised a good point that those springs need to be there to hold the oring in place to prevent bellows meltdown. i was also very dissapointed that the new springs were no different than the old ones and searched the internet on what i could have done wrong nut nothing was adding up! i am really relieved that i kept my old bellows and found that solved the issue that the upper spring would hold the raves down.
just to let you know i tried shimming the springs a 1/4" with washers and still wouldn't close with the sbt bellows and even tried to stretch one of the old springs. pretty sad! for now on, oem is the way to go.
if this all works out and runs good today at the lake, my pain hopefully will be somebody's gain.
i will post the results later.

 

[68ragtop]

i was about to pull the bottom springs but sportster raised a good point that those springs need to be there to hold the oring in place to prevent bellows meltdown. i was also very dissapointed that the new springs were no different than the old ones and searched the internet on what i could have done wrong nut nothing was adding up! i am really relieved that i kept my old bellows and found that solved the issue that the upper spring would hold the raves down.
just to let you know i tried shimming the springs a 1/4" with washers and still wouldn't close with the sbt bellows and even tried to stretch one of the old springs. pretty sad! for now on, oem is the way to go.
if this all works out and runs good today at the lake, my pain hopefully will be somebody's gain.
i will post the results later.

I anxiously await your results. I feel pretty good about it!

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

OMG, it was the garbage bellows! I wouldn't have imagined that.

 

[jammin777]

good news is i took her out today and while a little hard starting, it fired up and idled away from the no wake zone and to my surprise, it took off like a scalded cat. good power from takeoff throughout the power band. reached up to 6700 rpm at 54 mph on the lieometer. after about 5 min it bogged from high speed to a stop and shut off. luckily it fired back up and ran great. after a bit, i came back close to the ramp and shut her off just in case and was a little hard to start but fired up with a little throttle and took off again. i did this a couple times to make sure. rode it for awhile doing spin outs and she climbed out of them with ease. take off from dead stop hammering the throttle still with ease so all is well. so after 40 min, i decide to pull over at a nearby beach for a 15 min break, now it wont start. it turns over great but will barely fire then quit! pulled the brand new plugs and looked like they were oil fouled. wet black. (i triple checked the oil pump alignment.) so i installed some known running spares and still would not fire so i ended walking it back to the ramp nearly a 1/4 mile got to the ramp and still no fire. trailered it and fired right up.
this ski is really ticking me off! been wrenching away all summer and zero fun! doing to pull the battery, charge it and take to work for a load test. from there i don't know what the heck I'm going to do. no maint light either.
any ideas? a stick of dynamite?

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Oh no, someone pry this guy away from this ski!!!!

"trailered it and fired right up."

I guess you checked the RV gap again many time already, I think you did this 10 times!

Oily plugs and still no smoke, eh? Maybe catalytic converter bearings are stuck!!! (joke)

Must be another defective SBT part, what other SBT parts were used during rebuild?

 

[jammin777]

rv gap is in spec. soot on the pump area from exhaust. no other sbt stuff used lol

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Well black could be fuel soot from leaky injectors but both leaking? Or something causing rich mixture I suppose, not saying it isn't oil just thinking out loud (running one's mouth = great way to make trouble). Was it rich 4-stroking at all?

Don't like the sound of "Bogged and quit", did it go rich or lean? Still got 140psi?

 

[68ragtop]

So how long has it run? Did you do some longer easy cruising too? I have no idea how much oil would be put in the engine during assembly, but no doubt there is a bunch in there to be burned out. Your getting closer though, hang in there! I remember you had some idle adjustments done before. What was done at that time? The valves where open when those adjustments were made, maybe now that the valves are closed, its need to be re-adjusted?

whats the idle speed in & out of the water?

 

[jammin777]

So how long has it run? Did you do some longer easy cruising too? I have no idea how much oil would be put in the engine during assembly, but no doubt there is a bunch in there to be burned out. Your getting closer though, hang in there! I remember you had some idle adjustments done before. What was done at that time? The valves where open when those adjustments were made, maybe now that the valves are closed, its need to be re-adjusted?

whats the idle speed in & out of the water?

i cruised at different speeds as the water was pretty choppy but rode it for about 45 min before i took a 15 min break then it would turn over but wouldnt fire which is one of the problems ive had except now seems more severe. engine has 8 hrs on it so the assembly lube should be long gone. it idles 2300 rpm out of water and around 1500 in the water. i had the tps reset a couple weeks ago.

@ sportster, while it was running it ran great plenty of power throughout the power band except for when like i posted above in the first couple of min of riding, the engine lost power and shut down. i forgot to mention that while trying to start it after the shutdown, the starter would click but not turn over for a couple of tries as if the bendix was stuck or battery dead but then it turned over and fired up and took off and ran it for 40 min or so and ran great. then wouldnt restart. i'll do a compression test tomorrow as i cant now because the garage is right uner the bedroom and wife is sleeping.

edit: i wish i could have gotten it running again while at the lake so that i could have done a plug chop.
i got a better look at the plugs at home and i believe they are fuel fouled black but that tells me nothing as it is not a plug chop but after idling to shore before mu break and then trying to start it.

 

[jammin777]

did the compression test today and couple weeks ago they were both 140 psi. now the mag is 140 and pto is 150. pto seat in faster? who know so im not going to worry at this point.
something has been bugging me and have a feeling the tps is off and kinda my fault. what i did while i was checking the rv last week was i got to thinking that what if when my tps was set that when the idle screw was loosened, the possibility of the cable adjustment holding it open and not letting it close all the way. so i loosened the idle screw then unadjusted the throttle cable and it closed a little bit more. which gives me a reason to think the tps is still off! and if i'm thinking right, allowing it to run rich and causing it to flood while trying to start it. a auto tech buddy of mine seems to think the same way and says that it doesnt take much to throw the air fuel mapping off it not set right and says it has to be spot on for it to run right.
what do you guys think? i'm going to try and buy a candoo pro so that i can set it myself.

 

[kicker]

Wow Jammin, you have been through alot here. Sounds like you got the Rave issue figured out, which is good, and it sounds like your on the right track in regards to your hard start/fouled plug problem.

A couple things worth checking and are not to hard to do;

It doesnt sound like this is your issue, but double check your connection for the TPS and APS (air pressure sensor).
The TPS and APS are the same connectors and could get mixed up. Also the rave solenoid and injector plugs are the same.

Whenever I hear of a RFI that runs great and does not start after a while i always think it is a battery/charging issue. I do believe you put a new rectifier in but still worth checking to be sure you are getting proper volts when it is hard to start to rule out a low battery. Put a meter on the battery the next time it does not want to start and see what the reading is. If it drops to low 11's Volts chances are there is not enough power to run the injection and pump properly but will still crank the engine over. A top notch battery is key for these things.

 

[jammin777]

with the agm battery fully charged it reads 12.8 volts not running, cranking with plug wires on the grounding post for about 6 or 7 seconds drops to 11.6 volts and running at 4 k rpm it reads 13.25 volts. . is that enough to keep the battery charged for restart after riding a while?
i keep my battery on a smart battery tender when not in use.
its a regulator i bought from osd the heavy duty 4 tec one. spark plugs were a little fuel fouled after idling to shore when i wouldn't fire up after a lot of cranking with breaks in between of course. even tried another set of plug but didn't help. i checked all possibilities of crossing the sensor plugs with the help of the manual schematics and that's not the issue.
ive read that the rectifier ground is week and needs additional ground wire. does this apply to the rfi? if so how would i go about it? from where the regulator mounts to battery? what gauge wire? thanks

 

[kicker]

Sounds like it is charging fine, 13.25 v while running will keep a good battery charged.

I am not sure about the ground issues on the RFI, you could run a 14 gauge wire from the rectifier (black wire) straight to the battery to rule out a bad ground.

That said, I would still double check your TPS seeing how it was adjusted.

 

[jammin777]

yep the tps setting is all i can think of at this point thanks.