Sportster 150 215 HP for my mom

[Jeff d]

I've owned a couple of 2 stroke Sea Doos in the past but sold them to buy a 23' MasterCraft. My mom randomly sent me a text message on saturday saying that she wanted a small jet boat. She checked out an '07 with the 155 hp NA engine on Sunday but it was well worn and priced high. I started looking and came across an '05 with very low hours, garage kept and one owner (who is 61 years old) that we're going to check out on Friday.

I would prefer a normally aspirated engine for general reliability and lower maintenance costs but this one has the 215 HP supercharged engine. He said it was "fully serviced" by the dealer in August of '13 for about $650 so I'm not sure if that included a supercharger rebuild. I would hope it did for that kind of money but maybe not. It's nowhere near the 100 hr mark but is obviously about 9 years old.

If things are as they appear (through high res pics he sent and talking with the owner) the boat is in near showroom condition. In pictures it looks way better than many boats I've seen that are priced $6-7k higher. I also think the larger engine would make it an easier sell if she chose to get rid of it. Am I steering her wrong to potentially go with this higher strung and higher maintenance engine even when she doesn't necessarily care about performance?

What should I expect for the 2005? Did it come with the good supercharger washers from the factory? I'm very familiar with buying boats in general but what specific things to I need to pay attention to when evaluating this model/year/engine?

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Coastiejoe]

You are not steering her wrong. The 4-tech engines are very proven and run very well.. The Super Charger (SC) will need rebuilt unless he can PROVE it was done. Until the 08 model year Seadoo used ceramic washers in the SC. They fail and destroy the engine. This site offers a full rebuild service for (I think) $450. You get all OEM Seadoo parts with the updated kit which includes steel washers. Again, if he cannot PROVE they were done, you MUST assume they were not. Te ceramic breaks off and enters the engine.

 

[Jeff d]

Ok, I've confirmed that the supercharger has NOT ever been rebuilt and therefore almost certainly has ceramic washers. The service was just regular maintenance and a wear ring replacement. I'm trying to get the seller to cover the cost of parts ($350) in the form of a lower purchase price and I'll cover the labor (DIY removal plus mail in rebuild).

I know the 100 hr rebuild is critical but going forward how critical is the 2 year mark? I doubt she'll put 100 hrs even in 6 years. Can that be stretched to 3 or 4 years pretty safely as long as one does not exceed 100 hrs? She will almost certainly not go past 1/2-1/3 throttle on it. The only time it will hit WOT is when I get my hands on it.

 

[Coastiejoe]

Ok, I've confirmed that the supercharger has NOT ever been rebuilt and therefore almost certainly has ceramic washers. The service was just regular maintenance and a wear ring replacement. I'm trying to get the seller to cover the cost of parts ($350) in the form of a lower purchase price and I'll cover the labor (DIY removal plus mail in rebuild).

I know the 100 hr rebuild is critical but going forward how critical is the 2 year mark? I doubt she'll put 100 hrs even in 6 years. Can that be stretched to 3 or 4 years pretty safely as long as one does not exceed 100 hrs? She will almost certainly not go past 1/2-1/3 throttle on it. The only time it will hit WOT is when I get my hands on it.

the official answer is, the 100 hr mark is the answer.. That said, the physical reality is you can stretch things based on how it is driven and if it is maintained well.. Salt water areas you REALLY need to do it as scheduled and or provide some TLC to it.. Some spray an oil into it and things like that. Another concern is, that age itself affects bearings and bearing cages and what not. So there is a fine line as to how far it can be stretched vs no damage. Much of it is how it is driven. Not jumping waves keeps the RPM's down on it as when it free revs it can go into the TENS of thousands RPMs for example.

 

[Jeff d]

I don't have an issue with the 100 hr interval, it's the supposed 2 year interval. Despite the 2 year number being thrown around by the rebuilders I actually wasn't able to verify that 2 years was even required in the service manual that I found for a 2009. It only said 100 hrs. 100 hrs will probably equate to 4-6 years. It will be 99% fresh water river usage with the occasional jaunt into the brackish lake that the river dumps into. After going into the brackish water there will always be a long run (45+ mins) in fresh water headed back to the launch so things will be good and flushed without ever needing to hookup a hose.

 

[Jeff d]

Also, can I assume that it's quite a bit easier to remove the supercharger on a sport boat vs. a PWC? It doesn't look too bad on the PWC video that I watched. I'd imagine it's less cramped on the boat with no need to remove and re-install that cowling that the PWCs have. I'm generally mechanically inclined (I've changed timing belts and what not before) so how long should I expect the removal to take? What about the re-install?

 

[pvamax]

Very simple to remove and reinstall, 3 bolts and need to move waterbox back to have room to remove sc. 20-30 min each way and only because the bolts are in hard to turn areas.

 

[Jeff d]

Very simple to remove and reinstall, 3 bolts and need to move waterbox back to have room to remove sc. 20-30 min each way and only because the bolts are in hard to turn areas.

I'm 4 weeks into the healing process on a broken dominant hand so I'll double those estimates. That's still better than paying $700-1,000 to the dealer for the full supercharger service. I'd also trust a shop that rebuilds these superchargers all day every day vs. the local dealer that might do 2 a month and probably will pawn it off to the new guy who has never done one.

I asked the seller for another $350 off to cover parts but we ended up settling at $200 off. I'm happy with that since his asking price was reasonable and he already came off $700 (for a total of $900 off a reasonable asking price).

I'll also be installing a folding tongue kit (so it fits in their 18.5' deep garage with room to walk) and a bimini if I can find a good one. There is an OE yellow one on eBay for $425 but the boat already has a lot of yellow. I think black would be a bit classier but that will be up to my mom. I've heard the JM Camper OE clones are good and they are $380 but their website is screwed up right now. I've got an email into their sales dept but does anyone know if they still make/sell them? I could go universal with the appropriate dimensions but it works out to pretty much the same price as the JM clone. I've heard the OE boat cover (included in the sale) won't fit with most universal biminis though.

 

[JoeZ]

Another concern is, that age itself affects bearings and bearing cages and what not.

This is why the 2 year mark. The bearing cages are made of a plastic that is prone to failure over time. There is another thread on here showing some failures, and a bearing failure is the worst kind as it can rip up the engine pretty badly.

The actual price on the supercharger rebuild service through us is $415, which does include return shipping.

Nice move talking them down with the rebuild. Were you able to determine the supercharger hasn't had a failure yet? I didn't see that mentioned in the thread, but if buying used that would be the first thing I would inspect. If it's failed, the engine must be pulled and it becomes a project boat instead of a rec boat. Pretty easy to check, just pull off the intake hose from the supercharger and carefully spin the supercharger impeller by hand. If it spins freely, I'd either walk away or pull the supercharger for a deeper inspection.

 

[Jeff d]

Well, it's only got 8.45 hrs (verified on a service report from the dealer that he sent me) so a supercharger failure, although possible, is statistically unlikely. He reportedly took it out today and it ran well. I figured if it does 50+ mph on the test drive while I'm with him on Friday then the supercharger hasn't failed.

I'll see if he minds me pulling the intake hose as the final inspection bullet point before committing but isn't it an oetiker clamp that I'd have to destroy to remove? I have no problem prying it off after I buy it but he might if I haven't bought it yet. I've also read that I can just feel the pressure bulge the output hose when revved too.

 

[Jeff d]

Joe, do you happen to know exactly what sized fasteners I'd find on an '05? I have read that they vary but haven't found a breakdown by year. Would it be the Torx E8 or the regular 8 mm hex on the lower bolts? Would the top bolt be 6 or 8 mm? Is that top bolt "box wrench" referred to a regular hex or an external torx?

I don't have external torx sockets so I'd have to buy them if I need them.

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[JoeZ]

Yeah if it hits 50 you should be in the clear. It'll be building boost, which means it hasn't failed. You're correct about the clamp, but a $2 3" replacement from the auto parts store will fix that.

I would be weary about running it too much, even with the low hours, until you get those ceramics out of there...just seen too many failures. Should be very reliable and a fun machine for years to come.

 

[Jeff d]

I don't care about the clamp personally. I tore my fair share of those clamps off when replacing all of the fule lines in my 2 late '90s sea doos. I just think it would look scary to the lay person if I haven't officially bought the boat yet. Sounds like I'll be quite safe with the less invasive tests.

 

[Jeff d]

The plan is to run it enough to evaluate it, while it's still owned by the seller. If everything checks out then I'll bring it home and pull the supercharger before running any more under our ownership.

 

[pvamax]

The intake hose you remove to check if the sc freewheels should not be an oetiker clamp, btw.

 

[Jeff d]

Should I play it so safe on the washers as to avoid an actual water test? A full blown test on the water has always been my policy when buying a watercraft that runs and drives. I've bought my share of known broken stuff that couldn't be fully tested but the deals accounted for the level of risk I was taking.

I could just idle it on the hose and save a bunch of time but that omits so many devices/systems from my evaluation. I'm currently more comfortable with the risk of losing the ceramic washers (if it happens during the test drive I hope it will be apparent so I can abort the sale) vs. possibly missing some other problem or problems that a real test on the water would reveal (i.e. Leaking carbon seal, bad cavitation, stumbling under an actual load, etc). Should I not be?

 

[pvamax]

Check for sc freewheel before water test, then if ok give her the water test if available before signing , if it pulls good rpm and speed then I'd say buy it and pull the sc first thing when home.

 

[Jeff d]

I feel a lot more comfortable with only observing first during the beginning of the water test while he does almost everything. After that I'll begin messing with everything and making sure things work as expected. If I go taking things apart and it ends up running poorly on the test I could see an argument starting along the lines of "you break, you buy!". I'd rather avoid that possibility all together. It might be different if I was intimately familiar with this engine but I'm not. I'll be like "hey, watch me do something to your boat that you won't understand. But trust me, I read about on the Internet". If the sc is shot it's not going to run right or at 100% so it should be apparent if there's a problem on the water test while he still owns it and I haven't messed with anything. As I get closer and closer to an affirmative purchase decision I'll get more invasive in my evaluation. If I'm still feeling leery of it I'll pop the hose off at that point and check for a freewheeling sc to be triple sure it hasn't failed.

Btw when the washers fail and fall into the engine is it always immediately apparent? Or could it be asymptomatic for some time after that?

 

[pvamax]

That works as well. It is immediate if they fail. Failed washers equal no boost which equal lack of rpm which equals no speed and very poor performance. Look for rpm near 8000 during water test at wide open throttle. If within 3 or 400 rpm thats not terrible and not a sign of missing washers, but if you see 6000-6500, RUN...

 

[JoeZ]

That works as well. It is immediate if they fail. Failed washers equal no boost which equal lack of rpm which equals no speed and very poor performance. Look for rpm near 8000 during water test at wide open throttle. If within 3 or 400 rpm thats not terrible and not a sign of missing washers, but if you see 6000-6500, RUN...

:thumbsup:

 

[Jeff d]

Got it. It's pretty much flawless and looks like it just came off the dealer's lot. There's one blemish on the top of the front seat that was repaired with some silicone vinyl patch. I think somebody sat something there that made 2 small punctures. 2005, 8.5 hrs, $8,800 with 4 nice life jackets, OE cover, nice tube, etc.

I pulled the supercharger and I'm pretty certain they're ceramic washers but they are intact. I don't see the green tint that's referred to in other posts but they are certainly not gold colored. If the washers on either side of the cog are not gold they're ceramic right? I'm going to mail it in for a rebuild tomorrow but it looks just as pristine as the rest of the boat so it seems like such a waste.

 

[pvamax]

Congrats! I recently picked up a 08 with 48 hours, original sc, and also immediately pulled it for full rebuild. Looked fine, but i would never trust those ceramics! Cheap compared to if they let go!

 

[Jeff d]

Here it is:

 

[pvamax]

Looks nice! I actually had that exact same boat for the last three years, sold in may. FUN boat, enjoy!

 

[JoeZ]

Nice purchase! Definitely looks pretty clean from the pics. Washers are probably ceramic, but post a pic and we can tell for sure. If they aren't gold and look smooth and kinda dark then they are ceramic.

Should be fun to get that out on the water!