Ready to pull the trigger..

[450xdad]

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a '02 Challenger 2000 with a 250 Optimax. Stepping up from a kayak!

I've always been attracted to jet boats despite what others around me have to say. They just make sense, and look like a bunch of fun. Quite honestly, I have always leaned towards the 4 stroke Yamaha products, but I found a specific SeaDoo that fits my budget and needs for family fun. Plus it looks really nice...That always helps

Anyway, what kind of life can I expect out of this engine in hours? Of course, I know overall quality maintenance will factor,....but on average? I'm very familiar with 2-stoke motocross bikes, but I know nothing about the 2-stroke marine engines.

Anything I should look for specifically on this prospective boat? Known issues? Problems?

Thanks for any insight! I'm getting stoked!:cheers:...hopefully not too soon....

 

[ajvigants]

I'm just starting to shop for a used ski/tubing boat for the family and have not quite made the decision 100% whether to go jet or prop. I like the idea of the jet from the point of view of less draft and no prop to to cut swimmers. My concern is that, like the OP, I do not have a feel for what a reasonable lifespan to expect for the engine and jet drive are. Not saying they are bad, just admitting my ignorance.

I have no qualms about buying a 20 year old boat with a V6 or V8 and an outdrive - I'd just make a compression test a condition of sale and if that is good I'd be pretty confident (not guaranteed, but confident) of years of use before needing high dollar repairs. If I am still unlucky I figure I can get an outdrive and engine each rebuilt for about a grand a piece.

Is it the same deal with these? Is there any way to gage remaining life? What is the worst case (dollar-wise) scenario if the motor and jet unit both go? Are there specific years or engines to avoid? Is it wise to buy one of the newer 4 strokes (which I understand are also fuel injected) or are the older 2 strokes okay? Are the years when they used Mercury engines better or worse? More generally, I am curious about efficiency - better or worse than prop boats (I've heard both)? How much more fuel do the 2 engine boats burn than the single engine (should not be double since for a given power requirement the twin engine boat should be working less hard per engine)?

When I was growing up in northern Canada we had Skidoos with rotax engines - all the dads grumbled about what maintenance nightmares they were, and I do remember witnessing lots of people pulling and yanking and cursing trying to get them started. Are they better now? Is summer a kinder season for these engines than winter? I really would be upset to buy one and then end up sitting in the middle of the lake waiting for a tow. . .

Anyway, I'm hoping to get straightened out by the Seadoo forum . . . After all, who else should know the answers to these questions better than you folks!

 

[450xdad]

Those are some of the same concerns I had. From my research, and my knowledge from turning a wrench every now & then, I've settled 90% on the jet drive for myself.

I come to my own conclusion that the amount of resistance that the outdrive/propeller units encounter, it has to put much more stress on the engine/outdrive in comparison to the jet drive. As a result, more opportunity for failure(s), and I would imagine more maintenance. Sure the jet will probably spin at a higher rpm for a longer period of time, but the stress has to be *alot* less. Plus I don't want to have to worry about hitting the prop on stuff I can't see. I can live with the low speed steering challenge of the jet drive....

My budget has me pinned somewhere around 2002-2003 model year with the Mercury Optimax 250 EFI.

Based on my experience with 2 stroke dirtbikes, I've learned that they thrive at high rpms. My only question is rebuilding frequency and costs involved with the Merc marine motor. I can get a couple years out of my sons Honda motocross bike before I need to rebuild the top end. Piece of cake on a bike...boat? I have no idea.

 

[ajvigants]

From another threads I came across SBT (google "sbt motor" and it is the first listing) and they offer rebuilds at what seem to be reasonable rates (less than a grand for many motor types, 2K+ for the 4 cycles), although apparently not the Mercury engines that you are considering, as far as I could see. Top-end kits go for around $500. That is better than finding out the only option is $3K - $4K or more, but it is your experience with your son's motorbike that scares me- needing to do it every few years - apart from the cost, I just don't want to be screwing with a motor (top-end or whole thing) more than once every 5+ years. Preferably never.

With a large block traditional 4-stroke engine (and proper maintenance) I would expect around 2000 hours before a significant probability of needing a rebuild. Since I doubt most users spend more than 100 hours per year on the water, I figure that means a decently maintained boat should get 20 years out of an engine. So if I buy a late 90's boat I should have 10 years before needing to worry too much.

At www.sterndrive.cc I discovered that replacement outdrives are a bit over $1K as well - so not the end of the world either if that dies. I am not sure whether the stress issue you mentioned is a concern in practice or not, but hitting floating logs, etc., most certainly is. On the other hand, I'd like to better understand what the mean time between overhauls of the jet units tends to be.

If the Seadoo's are more like the motorbike example and want major work every few years I want to steer well clear of that. I want a boat not a series of projects.

From browsing this forum it does seem that a lot of people have a lot of problems with the Seadoos, but of course it is those with problems that post on forums (those whose boats work are on the water), so you cannot be guided by that.

What I am trying to figure out, in simple terms, is which of the following statements is more true:

a) Yes, these are finicky and do need more maintenance, but they are so great that it is worth it.

or

b) If a comprehensive study were done it would show that the failure rate of Seadoo motors and jet drives is equal to or lower than comparable, traditional prop boats. It is handling characteristics and intended use, not reliability differences, that you should base your decision on.

 

[unclejay]

A Different Perspective

My buddy and I both bought identical 1995 Speedsters in 1995. We both used them in the California Delta (clean fresh water).

I used mine constantly - every other weekend, winter and summer. When I sold the boat, it had many hundreds of hours on it, maybe 600 to 700. It still pulled 7000 rpm in both engines and ran 52 mph on fresh water, 55 on salt water.

My buddy only ran his once every 2-3 months and never in winter. Then it sat for a year or so, no use at all. Guess what ? 45 mph and 6650rpm max, and yes I adjusted the throttle cables.

I now own his boat, I missed my original so much I couldnt pass up the opportunity. However it will be top end rebuild time this winter.

Moral of the story: Use it or lose it.

Still the most fun boat ever.

 

[ajvigants]

Nobody seems to want to weigh-in on whether Seadoos are more or less reliable (on average) than traditional run-abouts. The poster comparing his well used boat and his friend's seldom-used boat makes a good point, but I was always under the impression that this held true for all boats.

I went to see a 2001 Challenger 1800 with an Optimax 210 yesterday. The seller is the second owner and when he bought the boat 2 years ago the motor seized on his first day out. A new motor cost him $4500 (installed), here just north of Houston. We hooked up a hose and started it, and while the general rumble of the motor sounded okay to me, there was another 'layer' to the noise that was sort of like an intermittent clunking noise. Not completely consistent and not entirely rythmic, but always there. I am assuming that there must be some play been the motor and the hull (rubber mounts of some kind) but I have no idea how the motor couples to the jet drive and wether there is any play there. A car engine, at idle, does not have any parallel noise (in my experience) so I am wondering if this is normal in these boats? I know this is a 'grey' sort of question and I'll probably need to answer it by going out and listening to several more.

How about this one: Is there any generally accepted wisdom as to which are the more desired powerplants, and why? 2 stroke, 4 stroke, Rotax, Merc, single engine, dual drives. Of course the more HP the better, but besides that.

 

[kustomkarl]

One point about this seadoo forum is that people are on here to get their problems solved...not here to tell about the great time they had on the water... I have helped just about every seadoo on the water at one time or another it seems. I have see tons of old equipment being used and run on a regular bases. I bought a 1997 challenger model 787 with a 110 hp, 2 stroke cylinder engine ...it got about 52 MPH on the water and with some regular maintenance it ran all the time dependable. I bought a 2008 200speedster with a 310 naturally aspirated intake, back in Jan 08. It has a inter looping cooling system. This system has no salt water in the cooling system as it is a closed system. It is very maintenance friendly, apposed to the older open cooling systems needing to be flushed. These (2) 4-tec engines that power this speedster is the newest technology from seadoo's Rotax engines. These 4 stroke engines are super quiet, low maintenance, reliable, fuel conservative, and easy to get replacement parts for. I have owned Mercury I/O's and numerous name brand outboards. I have a strong back ground in the Kawasaki and Honda product line as a trained certified technician. I have raced in competition for 6 years with Jet ski's and understand the concept of the jet drive system very well. I would buy another Rotax in a heartbeat. I will never buy a Mercury product based on the problems I have seen here on the forum. I have seen seadoo make changes over the years to improve their product to be on top of the competition. In my opinion, I believe that they have the best overall product on the market. I will never own a "prop" driven boat again by choice. This is just my view on the subject and my own opinion. It doesn't reflect the opinion of the seadoo forum in any way or fashion.

Karl

 

[450xdad]

One point about this seadoo forum is that people are on here to get their problems solved...not here to tell about the great time they had on the water... I have helped just about every seadoo on the water at one time or another it seems. I have see tons of old equipment being used and run on a regular bases. I bought a 1997 challenger model 787 with a 110 hp, 2 stroke cylinder engine ...it got about 52 MPH on the water and with some regular maintenance it ran all the time dependable. I bought a 2008 200speedster with a 310 naturally aspirated intake, back in Jan 08. It has a inter looping cooling system. This system has no salt water in the cooling system as it is a closed system. It is very maintenance friendly, apposed to the older open cooling systems needing to be flushed. These (2) 4-tec engines that power this speedster is the newest technology from seadoo's Rotax engines. These 4 stroke engines are super quiet, low maintenance, reliable, fuel conservative, and easy to get replacement parts for. I have owned Mercury I/O's and numerous name brand outboards. I have a strong back ground in the Kawasaki and Honda product line as a trained certified technician. I have raced in competition for 6 years with Jet ski's and understand the concept of the jet drive system very well. I would buy another Rotax in a heartbeat. I will never buy a Mercury product based on the problems I have seen here on the forum. I have seen seadoo make changes over the years to improve their product to be on top of the competition. In my opinion, I believe that they have the best overall product on the market. I will never own a "prop" driven boat again by choice. This is just my view on the subject and my own opinion. It doesn't reflect the opinion of the seadoo forum in any way or fashion.

Karl

Great feedback! That's the stuff I was looking for. My wife & I went looking a boats today. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I am very close to pulling that trigger on the '02 Challenger.... but the more I resarch, and the more I look, the more doubtful I am of the Merc engines. Nothing specific, just a combination of comments, and postings I've found throughout the interenet. Plus add the 2 stroke factor.....and it makes me more aprehensive.

Today we went and walked around some marina's. Just to get a basic idea of boat sizes, models, and what might/might not be practical for us. It was helpful to see other families packing up, launching, ect to see what it might look like for us.

Although many of the boats we saw today were prop boats, I keep going back to the jet in my mind. The Utopia seems to be the most pratical for us. I like the full windshield, I like the 20 ft size, and I really like the JET drive- even more.

QUESTION: What year did they start using the 4 stroke motors in the Utopia? Maybe I should start heading in that direction.

Thanks again.

 

[ajvigants]

Karl: Yes, that is the kind of opinioned response I was looking for too (opinionated responses are a good thing if the responder has enough experience so that their opinion is worth something ) AFter seeing one in the flesh for the first time and listening to the merc run, and hearing what it cost the guy to replace it, I left thinking that I like the boat design but not so sure I want to go the merc route . . . Something a bit bigger than the Challenger might be nice, but it is the largest that will fit in my garage without needing to kitty corner it and use both bays. And in a sense it is a bigger boat than I could have with an outdrive since those hang even farther off the trailer.

450xDad: According to Wikipedia:

"The SEADOO company has been producing personal watercraft since 1988 and will be celebrating its 20th year in business in 2008. They did however invent the sport with the first sit down Sea Doo in 1968 and 1969. However due to the engine technology of the time they abandoned the product for almost 20 years. Sport Boats were introduced in 1994 and used the same Rotax 2-Stroke engines used in their jet-skis. In 2003, SEADOO began to use Four-Stroke Rotax engines which were all fuel injected, and in certain models, were supercharged and intercooled to increase performance. All SEADOO models have 4-Stroke Rotax engines except for the one-person 3D-DI model which needs to use a 2-stroke engine in order to lessen weight. The most powerful option ever offered by these engines is Twin Rotax 4-Tec engines only in Sport Boats that combine two 215 hp (160 kW) supercharged intercooled engines used in the Speedster and 230 challenger models rated at 430 combined horsepower. Their new RXP-X and RXT-X now have 255 horsepower the most in the industry with a 0-50 mph speed in less than 2.9 seconds."and about the merc option:

"In 2000-2004, the SEADOO Sport Boat line-up from 18 feet to 22 feet used jet drives made by Mercury instead of Rotax because the Mercury engines made 240 or 250 hp (186 kW)"

So it looks like the timeline is like this:

94-02 2 stroke rotax
00-04 2 stroke merc (in 18' - 22' boats)
03-now 4-TEC

I have no idea when things cut in - for example are all the 03 Challengers mercs, or did some come eith 4-TEC's? What is the oldest 18' that has the 4-TEC? Also, were the first year(s) of the 4-TECSs solid, or did it take some time to get the bugs worked out?