One huge issue with rebuilding a 2003 GTI LE, single carb

[benjilafouine]

Hello,

I am starting this new thread to see if anyone will have a genious idea about my ski. I am appealing on the experts here.

I had the engine replaced at the dealer last week (GTI LE 2003, one carb and 717 engine). All this was replaced fixed:

- New rebuilt engine directly from BRP;
- New oil pump;
- New rotary valve;
- Carburetor rebuilt with complete rebuild kit (yesterday) and they also replace some kind of valve/nozzle (made of copper I think and as small as half a small finder)
- Fixed muffler (there was a bit of loose where the water exhaust connects). Muffler was welded (seemed OK to me).
- Jet pump inspected and oil changed (jet pump is only four years old and less than 35 hours wear because previous owner, a cousin of mine, had it rebuilt in 2011).
- Of course, new plugs and total check up.

Ends up that the ski is in deep trouble: lack of power, will not go faster than 38 mph, hard to start, no acceleration, engine stalls at idle, smells gas when trying to start it.

When I got the ski back, I thought that the extra burn-in oil directly in the tank was causing the problem but after three tanks and nine hours later, I realized that there was a problem. So I brought back the ski to the dealer.

They tried some adjustments on Monday and I went for a water test only to find that the issue was still there. Then they decided to rebuild the carb with a complete rebuild kit and then they went on the water (with my insistence). Their top mechanics stalled the engine and finally realized there was a way to restart it by cranking and "pumping`the gas.

So they brought back the machine to the shop, checked the whole fuel line, including gas pump, and they found absolutely nothing. They checked the plugs wires but aside from a bit of verdegris (copper oxidation) at the end of the wires, but nothing that can explain this. So tonight, we are at a complete loss (and they are the biggest BRP dealer in Canada).

I made a few phone calls of my own and was told to check the rotary valve timing (or something like that) and check if the pistons were not inverted in the rebuild process (by BRP). The pistons are OK, we checked them with a camera and saw the orientation arrows. They are now checking the rotary valve in case it was not put back together wrong.

They also suspect the rebuilt engine to be defective (taking some air from the crank?).

We have 10 days of summer weather left and after that, summer is gone and I am very frustrated at this, especially with all the money that I've thrown in on that issue (it now hurts).

Worse is that I can't sell a ski like that so I have to get to the bottom of it, no matter what.

Has anyone seen this? What should they check for in your opinion?

Thanks.

Benji.

 

[jts32]

Just had an issue similar to yours with my '99 GTI. It started out by slowly loosing top end speed, and progressively got worse to the point it was backfiring through the carb and barely running. Did all the same things your mechanics are doing: fuel lines, plugs, wires, rotary valve timing, carb..... I finally pulled the flywheel and found that the center of the flywheel had actually rotated from the rest of the flywheel by 20+ degrees causing the timing to be off. I believe every time I hit the starter, it moved a little each time, causing slow loss of power to barely running. Not sure if that is your problem, but may be worth a look if everything else is checking out OK.

 

[benjilafouine]

OK, will have them check that. The have already noticed something: the rebuilt engine they got is slightly different from what they expected (subtle differences). It could be a 720 instead of a 717 and they think it could be a rotary valve adjustment.

Benji.

 

[CReynoldsMIZ]

717 and 720 is the same engine...

 

[jts32]

Yep, they are the same motors. Believe the true displacement is 718.2 cc

 

[mikidymac]

Please try to keep just one thread.

Starting multiple on the same ski makes it difficult for us to respond to you quickly.

 

[benjilafouine]

Yeah I know, but the 717 vs 720 thread was a simple question until a member asked me why I was asking! So I will only respond in that thread from now on.

Issue fixed!!!!! I am so happy! Turned out that the rotary valve was not adjusted dead on. This dealer has three stores (biggest dealer in Canada) and their top mechanics (his name is Benoit, just like me!) works in all three stores I believe. Anyway, I met him last night and he asked me some questions about the history of the machine and he immediately suspected that the rotary valve was not dead on. He gave instructions to another mechanics on how to fix it. Also, he noticed that the spark plugs booth were a bit corroded, so he asked for them to be replaced. He also requested "hard top" spark plugs because in these models, the top tends to unscrew because of vibration.

Then, they adjusted the newly rebuilt carb again and went for a water test. I happened to arrive at the dealer (on my way to the cottage) while two mechanics were gone testing it in the water. They offered me a coffee and while I was waiting, the mechanics came back and parked the Sea-Doo in the front parking rather than bringing to the service area. I saw that as a good sign. I walked to the service area and they were really celebrating with the technical advisor. They told me: issue fixed! High Five! I was happy but couldn't wait to test it by myself.

Now about the money... I asked the advisor how much I owed him and he offered me his hand. However, I told him I was not expecting charity and that I would pay for what I authorized, meaning the water tests and the carburetor kit. And I insisted. So the bill came to 220$ which I didn't pay because I had 300$ worth of fidelity points accumulated there. I have to thank them by email and also emphasize that they must keep on fixing older machines because there was an almost heated debate about that when this were not going well. Several members here are complaining that BRP doesn't want to fix 10 years old+ machines. As you have probably noticed, writing is my forté...

So I arrived at my cottage a few hours ago, pinned the trailer to my ATV and went straight to the descent to test it. I only tested 20 minutes but boy, it rocked! It immediately went above 42 mph (as 37 before) and the accelerations were brutal. Idle was going very well also. I left it on idle for one minute then went on full throttle. The sea-doo almost jumped.

So the bleeding has stopped at 4,000.00$ but I've got myself an almost brand new ski (the hull is pristine, only needs a little gel-coat at the keel). Hard lesson learned here: I could have gotten myself a 2009 for that price plus my initial purchasing price of 4,000.00$. However, as a neighbor of me said: you could have purchased a beaten Sea-Doo and never know it, whatever the year. So I will stick with mine for the next 2-3 years.

Tomorrow, I am out of the lake with a beautiful day in the forecast. There will be plenty of boats out there so I am not worried should a problem happen (but I doubt it). I will keep you posted if any issues arise.

Thanks all for you help.

In conclusion: engine timing must be dead precise.

Benji.

 

[benjilafouine]

Hello again. Just got back from an extended test. The new motor rocks! However, I seem to have a slight carb adjustment issue (I think).

The ski runs in low speed (up to 20 mph). After that, if I keep accelerating slowly, the ski will stay at 20 mph and then the high speed jet will kick in (brutally) and bring the ski immediately to 28 mph. What I am saying here is that I simply can't cruise at 25 mph: it is either 20 mph (on low speed) or 28 mph and higher on high speed. If I release slightly the throttle at 28 mph, it will go back to 20 mph (the high speed jet goes off).

This means that I am incapable of cruising at 25 mph. I read the shop manual at pages 491 and 498-499 and the low and high screws seem pretty obvious to locate. Now, based on my description, what would you folks recommend as an adjustment?

I don't think this is a timing issue anymore because the engine runs very smoothly and starts very well and has no hiccups no more or lack of power. I would like to give it a shot by myself rather than driving 160 miles round trip for such a minor issue.

Thanks for helping.

Benji.

 

[bajaman123]

If I'd just dumped 4 large into this thing, it by God better run correctly! This dealer...hate to say this but their guys must not know Jack Shiete. You are being taken advantage of if you don't simply take this thing back and demand it be repaired until it 'runs like new'. Dude...listen to yourself: You are basically saying it still isn't quite right but, hey...they did the best they could...
Unacceptable.

 

[benjilafouine]

I agree with you but summer is winding down and I was without my ski for almost four weeks. There is obviously a small issue left and I will bring it back, but after our last week of nice weather is over (usually if gets hard to ride here after September 15th unless exceptional weather).

The way I see it, it is a minor adjustment (fine tuning) but each time I take it there, I know I will be out of my ride for 3-4 days. One of their problems is that they are 20 minutes away from water so these issues take longer to be resolved. They have a senior tech and he is a wiz but he only works on the desperate causes...

I looked at my carb this afternoon but couldn't find the LS and HS screws. Are they inside the cover/flame arrester?

Benji.

 

[Mickirig1]

It is a real bear to get to the screws. You will never get to them with air box on. Take all the bolts holding down the flame arrestor and take the air box off. Make your adjustments. Put the air box / flame arrestor back on (top on) with 4 bolts holding it on. Test ride it. Needs more adjustment. Take off air box and repeat the adjust / test cycle. Get it where it works, put air box and flame arrestor back on with all bolts. The air box has to be on when test riding. The carb is setup for the amount of air flow it can get from the air box setup. Read the carb adjustment in the Sticky at top of the page. I would think they have it set to factory specs. You may not get much change. Small adjustments. Sticky gives you the ranges of what flows when. You have a smooth idle and good idle speed leave low speed screw and idle where it's at. Or live with it till the season is over. It may need new jets or the back flow check valve is bad. You need metric hex drive to get off air box / arrestor bolts.

 

[benjilafouine]

You have convinced me that this task is not for me! I read the whole sticky thread and if the screws would have been easily accessible, I might have taken a shot at them. My guess was to counterclockwise the high speed jet by 1/4 and try the ski so the high jet would kick in a bit faster (if I am right reading the documentation). I feel the high speed jet should kick in at a bit lower RPM. But instead, I have a gap between 20 and 28 mph. This rebuilt project has been a complete nightmare all along. The only positive aspect was me learning so much from this website. I must have spent more than 50-60 hours learning about mechanics (theoretically I mean). Good thing I was on vacation and being an IT specialist helps: Google has no secrets for me...

As you mentioned, I can live with the problem for 10 more days of vacation and after that, season is pretty much over here (water is already down to 20 Celsius). Soon after Labor day, I will bring it back to the dealer until they get it right (I don't mind making a few water tests around the Montreal island) but I would like them to accompany me so we can fix the issue on the spot.

By the way, I started a whole debate at the dealer as if they should take care of older skis or not anymore and pressure has been there for the past three weeks. As time passes, there are less mechanics with true skills to take care of 2-stroke engines. I have been so frustrated in the past three weeks, you can't even imagine. I had to go way out of my comfort zone just to understand the mechanical aspects (starting with compression ratio). I was totally green. I deeply regret my purchase as I have never bought used stuff since 1990... (cars, SUVs, ATVs, chain saws, blowers, trimmers, etc.).

Carb was fully rebuilt last week, including jets (they showed them to me) ans some other part they ordered aside. As for the back flow valve, could someone post a picture of it? if it looks like a copper gun bullet (half the size of a small finger), it was replaced as well (I had mentioned it to the mechanics).

Thanks for answering. Answers are hard to come by at this level of complexity.

Benji.

 

[benjilafouine]

After testing again the ski today, I determined that the high jet was running too lean because if I slightly pull the choke when it doesn't want to kick in when it should, then it jumps.

Is the screw under the flame arrester?

Thanks

 

[benjilafouine]

I was able to remove the cover.. but I am trying to locate the high speed screw. I can see the low speed one although.

Benji

 

[benjilafouine]

I really feel stupid. I was unable to locate the high speed screw. Actually, the diagram from my carb in the shop does not seem to match the reality because if I am right, the low speed screw was in a vertical position (the screw with the cross) as the manual seems to show that it is horizontal. For what it<s worth, the vertical screw was on the side of the carb that faces the bow (front) side of the boat. Now where the heck is the high speed one???

Here is the image:



Thanks for helping.

Benji.

 

[mikidymac]

The high speed screw should have a black plastic cap on it. This plastic cap will only allow about 1/4 turn of adjustment then you have to pull it off to adjust more.
There is still something not correct with your carb. The factory spec on that carb is to have the high speed screw closed, so 0 turns out. If you have to adjust it out from closed then something is not correct.

 

[benjilafouine]

Hello,

With the local Sea-Doo mechanics here, we opened the screw by about 1/16th (approximately). Then I went for a water test and it was better: I am able to get a bit over 20 and a bit less than 27 (in my trouble zone). The 24 mph zone is still hard to be stable but it seems better. I didn't opened the second cover, this is why I could not locate the screw but by using a small mirror, the mechanics was able to turn it slightly (counter clock wise).

The local mechanics here says that I should ride this way for a little more time because the motor still needs more break-in after the timing issue (at the dealer) that caused me not being able to run the Sea-Doo at higher RPM. He also says that opening to much the screw would not be good because too much gasoline would run in the engine (at the expense of oil).

This is where I am now. I may have more questions this week... Any additional comment is appreciated.

Thanks.

Benoit

 

[Mickirig1]

Still not right. Be careful need fuel flow for correct oiling of engine.

 

[benjilafouine]

Still not right, that is for sure. But I am not sure what the next step is. New engine, rebuilt carb and I think the timing issue has been revolved (Sea-Doo starts well, no lack of power, goes at 42 mph unlike like it was last week). This is why we turned the key very little. I gave it a strong spin on the lake today then checked the spark plugs for overheating: everything normal, plugs hot but not over hot. I was told that it should be closed all the way. Why would I need to open it??? Motor to new?

Benji.

 

[benjilafouine]

More notes: if I try a linear acceleration, it will climb to 20 mph, then stays there while I keep pressing on the throttle, then jump to 28 mph. If I pulled choke a little before it jumps, it will jump immediately.

Still timing issues?????

Benji.

 

[benjilafouine]

And by the way, oil pump was adjusted to be richer than supposed.

 

[benjilafouine]

Hello. A little status. Spoke to the dealer. They do not want me to try adjusting anything. They want the Sea-Doo back for a fine tuning session on the river. Of course, at my expense (another 300.00$ down the drain maybe)... I feel a little bit frustrated about all this. Ski is running fine but not if you want to ride at 25 mph: simply impossible. Either 20 or 27.

Since the engine is under warranty and card was rebuilt (both by them), no one else wants to have a shot at it (including me).

I feel a bit stuck but I guess I have no choice. When I bring it back, I intend to be heard loud and clear.

Benji.

 

[mikidymac]

There is no way they should be charging you a dime more for anything. They have already overcharged you for the work done and the ski still does not run correctly. The symptoms you are still having are not how a ski should run, It is still lean if you have to pull the choke to get it to clear up. I would demand to speak with the owner of the shop and politely explain what has happened and they need to fix it at no additional charge.

For less than $300 you can buy a brand new carb that would probably fix the lean issue.

 

[benjilafouine]

Yes, I intend to talk to the owner when I bring it back next Tuesday and put some pressure. It was pretty goofy to deliver back the ski to me with a bad timing adjusted in the first place. Then the rebuilt carb came back not adjusted well after they fixed the timing. They didn't test enough precisely when they did a water test. In all, this will be the fourth time I bring it back. And by the way, they told me a new original carb from BRP costs 800.00$ in Canadian dollars (why do things always have to cost more here, even with the exchange rate taken into account?).

In the meantime, I am using it that way because in 6 days, it will be almost over for this season (after labor day). I am not worried at the oil flow because it seems to be burning more than enough of it (and after a long ride, I checked the plugs and they are hot just as they should be, not burning hot, which would be an issue).

Anyways, their adjustment, their warranty.

Benji.

 

[howie099]

ok, reading thought this that dealer must not work on 2-stoke engines. First how could they not time the engine right? The manual goes over that part very easy. They must not have the $15 plastic timing wheel that we all have. 2nd why would you not rebuild the carb with a new engine? I bet they didn't replace the needle & seat and didn't replace the accel pump rubbers. Seadoo has those carbs dialed perfectly. I personally had like 1/8 or turn on the high screw just to make me feel better with no issues what so ever. You could just have an air leak at the fuel filter since that $4 gasket always leaks. Please say you don't have the grey tempo lines on it. I would of replaced all of the fuel lines with the new engine would of added like $30 to the ski's bill. If your oil mark it bit more advance that won't matter at bit for how your ski runs. I have a pre-mix seadoo and it barley smokes at 40:1 at idle if you use good oil.

You need to have someone buy you a carb in the state and send to you so you only pay the import taxes. ODS sells a 717 carb new for $220 US might need to adjust a bit since you can't get a new one from Seadoo, but there is no way the taxes are like $500 on that carb.

This whole post just gives repair shops a bad name. I would rather they tell me they can't fix it than charge you $4000 on one that still doesn't work.