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Old VS New... the eternal debate

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This was a really good thread, Im glad Sqrl brought this up again. I know from his last post he was joking but it did revive the thread. I realize this is probably just a pipe dream, but since it's the off season for most of us it gives us something to talk about and maybe even debate.

One new development since the last serious post if BRP/Rotax has developed a new 2 stroke engine for the SkiDoo, which makes some interesting speculation about using this engine in a SeaDoo.

My personal opinion is while its entirely feasible that this could be done, I'm not sure there would be any cost savings, but it should be lighter, and smaller making for a smaller hull design, and a lighter ski, something that I think all of us 2 stroke guys want.

Lets get some opinions, ideas, on this subject.

Lou
 
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SeaDooLou said:
This was a really good thread, Im glad Sqrl brought this up again. I know from his last post he was joking but it did revive the thread. I realize this is probably just a pipe dream, but since it's the off season for most of us it gives us something to talk about and maybe even debate.

One new development since the last serious post if BRP/Rotax has developed a new 2 stroke engine for the SkiDoo, which makes some interesting speculation about using this engine in a SeaDoo.

My personal opinion is while its entirely feasible that this could be done, I'm not sure there would be any cost savings, but it should be lighter, and smaller making for a smaller hull design, and a lighter ski, something that I think all of us 2 stroke guys want.

Lets get some opinions, ideas, on this subject.

Lou
Click to expand...

even if you could make it work, our good friends at the epa are still trying to force 2 strokes of the water. intresting concept tho, i'll read into it.
 
Humm... I don't see BRP making a new 2 stroke ski but I do see us fabricating one of those new engines into an X4 hull! Part of me doesn't want a new X4 though. If it was an improvment our XP's and SPX's wouldn't be so special anymore.
 
Unfortunately the 2-stroke is being killed off. I see all the positives that everyone says in regards to light weight, easy to work on, etc....

Stunn, I grew up in Ohio with motocross and 2-strokes. I hate to see that the same thing has happened there that has happened with PWC's. Overpriced, heavy and difficult to work on dirt bikes..... Noisy too. It is killing the sport.
 
Stunnerable said:
Humm... I don't see BRP making a new 2 stroke ski but I do see us fabricating one of those new engines into an X4 hull! Part of me doesn't want a new X4 though. If it was an improvment our XP's and SPX's wouldn't be so special anymore.
Click to expand...

I know that I may be just a little biased, because I own one, but the X4 SeaDoo, I own a 96XP, is the best balanced production PWC that was ever made by any manufacturer. I will always be a special ski, but lets face it, they're not going to last forever.

If anyone is interested here's a link to the new Rotax/BRP two stroke, which is based on the Evinrude/Johnson outboard technology. It meets all current and future EPA requirements.

http://corp.brp.com/en-us/engines/brps-rotax-engines

Lou
 
well, i guess i'll go against the grain here....
I like the new ski's, i'm just too much of a cheap azz to buy one, but if I had access to a 2012 model, sorry, but my little juiced up x4 is going to stay home and keep my cluttered garage company 9 times out of 10.
Yes I love to jump waves and wake like the rest of you its my favorite part of owning a 96xp, but past that, the newer models have everything going for them, and as the 90's ski's become more and more rare, used 4 strokes will become more common, and cheaper, its just a matter of time.
And for me, honestly the thing holding me back from owning a 4 stroke is not the cost of the ski, but rather the cost to repair, and my lack of repair skills when it comes to a 4 stroke engine,i don't know crap about them, but doesn't the same thing apply say with owning a 94 Mustang Gt, vs a 2012 Mustang GT ? (duly noted I own the 94), but heck, i'm not even sure I can find where the battery is on the newer cars.
technology is advancing so much that none of us shade tree mechanics can keep up, but that's just a sign of the times.
now, as far as what I would do if they offered a small light weight 1.5 seater 4 stroke or optimized 2 stroke, it would certainly fall into consideration for me.
I would very much like to have a ski that I can get 100 miles out of a tank, vs the 45 I get now, and the 4 strokes are much more economical fuel wise, especially if your not going full WOT.
 
when it comes time to upgrade skis, i'm going to a newer stand-up like an sxr or super jet. if i wanted a boat i'd buy a speedster or something!
 
So why isn't SeaDoo coming out with a new tech 2 stroke in one of the newer ski's? Is the market not there? I'm sure they monitor this board amoung many others and hear the cry for something new/old. Evenrude really hit the mark with the new tech 2 stroke IMHO. As for the ski itself, I'm just getting into the boat side and with my back am doubting a ski is in my future. This discussion, on the other hand, is very interesting to me. How do the old hulls handle differently? I know SeaDoo had to deepen the hulls to help with cavitation. What did that do to the handling? Seems the deeper hull would help handling, not hinder it.
 
Mr. Leary,

I understand what your saying however I just plain don't like the way the new skis feel on the water. Yeah, they RIP!.. But they are in now way a little motocrosser that my X4 is.. And therein lies my biggest gripe with the new skis. They are now mini boats not skis. You can feel the hulls roll over in turns and they ride so deep they track differently. I feel less in control than on my X4 in ANY conditions. Not for me. I will own several power variants of the X4 forever.

Joe
 
I suppose it would make a difference of where you ride and the type of riding that you do. I have only ridden on the ocean once, it was on a rental ski a newer 4-tek GTI, it was fun and I can't imagine riding my 96XP on the ocean. I do think that my 96GTI or a GTX would both do well for ocean riding. However I do my riding on a medium size lake and the 96XP is very comfortable there.

I still think if I were in the market for a new ski for as expensive as they are that I would just buy a fast boat a lot more comfortable and a similar ride to a 4-tek. I've said this before and gotten some flak, if I were going to buy a new ski today, I would probably buy a Kawasaki.

Lou
 
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This may be way off track but my 95 speedster corners flat. Do the newer boats corner flat or do they "bank" more? I really don't like the flat cornering. Is there a year when this changed? Is that a difference of the newer skis as opposed to the older ones?
 
Sink,

That's one difference but SeaDoo started using the Vee hull in some 2-stroke ski's in 96 and 97, the big difference between the 2-stroke and the 4-tek ski's is the engine, the 4-tek 4-stroke engine being heavier makes for a larger and heavier ski. Also a ski that most shade tree mechanics can't work on.

Lou
 
Love both. My RXT-X is great for speed, taking people out (more stability and power makes it easier), and long distance riding (far better on gas if you're just cruising). It's quiet and fast. Most of the time I use this.

My GTX I bought 4 years ago and still love it. Compared to my RXT-X, it's deafening, slow and horrible on gas. But goddamit, it's still fun! Body english does so much on this thing I can only imagine what the 2 seaters are like. Hops over the waves instead of cutting through like the RXT-X. Good to teach people how to use a jet ski on too. Used to be my only ski but since I bought the RXT-X in July it sort of took a backburner (also, my little brother rides it now in my absence). Now I take it on shorter trips or if I'm playing by the inlet. Fun, but doesn't take the chop as well if the wind is strong on the bay, and is much worse on gas at normal speeds. Always take spare plugs and oil too.

Both skis have been pretty reliable but obviously the 08 hasn't had an issue and the 97 has had a few slight issues along the way (pinhole in exhaust leaking over stator, reverse bucket piston failed).

My next foray will be into standups.
 
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I rode a 3 seater from 93 to 2006... with a few 2 seaters between. night / day between my XP and GTX. each is fun, but each is very different.
 
guess ill add my 2 cents. if you want the batmobile for the water then a new seadoo is for you. personally i cant stand the bulky, long look of the new ones. if i want a boat ill go out and buy a boat. i just purchased a couple months ago a 97 xp so obviously i have yet to ride it since its winter her in the north...but the old skis look alot more manageable maybe not as stable but more fun. now if you have a family and arnt willing to whip something around then i guess a new one would be best but as far as how a pwc is supposed to look i consider that somewhere from the 90s to i guess early 00s. the seadoo commercials on the weather channel from the mid to late 90s is forever embedded in my brain as to what a pwc is supposed to look like. sleek, brightly colored and smaller oh and the screaming sound of a 2 stroke!
 
This debate isn't eternal... one day all the old ski's will die... each year many, many hulls end up in landfills... :(

sad.

only because... people could be riding those skis!
 
SabrToothSqrl said:
This debate isn't eternal... one day all the old ski's will die... each year many, many hulls end up in landfills... :(

sad.

only because... people could be riding those skis!
Click to expand...

Yes and no. I see blasters, X4's and many standups lasting well beyond our years. They are all too special to just waste away entirely. Granted, they will be few and far between someday.. Not any day soon though. My $.02
 
i know everyone is speed freaks, but where do you draw the line? my 96 xp is agile, fast, 62 mph (gps) to me this is fast enough. in the hands of a wrong person these newer machines are just asking for touble. what then? speed restrictors that can't be tampered with? now your 250 hp machine is limited to 50mph because some clowns start giving us riders a bad name, that seems to be what is happening here where i ride, why cant the manufactures just keep it simple, it costs them less to make, easier upkeep, a happy customer is a return customer. how many people sell or walk away from the sport. i'm kinda rambling i hope my point isn't to muddled...LONG LIVE THE X4!!!
 
SabrToothSqrl said:
This debate isn't eternal... one day all the old ski's will die... each year many, many hulls end up in landfills... :(

sad.

only because... people could be riding those skis!
Click to expand...

Courtesy of Minnetonka :mad:


jetski-1.jpg


Look at that poor XP
 
Sad, but that's what it takes to keep other older ski's alive and running....

Lou
 
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