Jet surf hydraulic throttle

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Jboles1014

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Hey guys I’m new to this forum but very excited to have found it. I’ve got an 1989 jet surf (one of those standup surf board w/ a rotax 260cc engine on it) it’s really neat and runs good but: it has a hydraulic throttle on it and I can’t get it to bleed out, it has a small oil reservoir and a bleed screw at the handle but can’t get it to work. The plunger on the handle seems to have suction, and it has a shrader valve in the bottom of the tank that’ll screw in either way. I don’t know which way it goes or if that is even my problem. I appreciate any replies!
 
Damnit, does anyone have any idea of a good hydraulics forum? I looked and signed up to one, but then found out no one uses it. Or even a hydraulic site that goes into detail about the workings of hydraulics. I have a general knowledge of the subject, but can’t seem to figure this one out...
 
Maybe I can help a little, got any various pics of the system? There are many flavors of Schrader valves, some are used as check valves and have weak springs intended for the purpose.

I'm wondering if someone has changed the valve, not realizing the special purpose, or if this is a drain of some sort (unlikely).
 
Damnit, does anyone have any idea of a good hydraulics forum? I looked and signed up to one, but then found out no one uses it. Or even a hydraulic site that goes into detail about the workings of hydraulics. I have a general knowledge of the subject, but can’t seem to figure this one out...

Hydraulic throttles are still rather unusual but they're out there and probably not gaining traction over fly by wire. My guess is yours uses an oil based fluid (ATF should be a close approximation), like the hydraulic steering systems. At any rate, perhaps someone filled it with the wrong fluid and caused some damage?
 
Well, I guess I can look into that as I filled it up with atf and than after I couldn’t get it to bleed out I did fill it with brake fluid.... yes I know brake fluid is soo highly corrosive but it didn’t seem to make a difference. The plunger still has suction in and out, it’s weird there is actually absolutely nothing on jetsurf on the net, not even an owners manual...if you had to guess which way would you think the shrader valve needs to face? Towards the fluid reservoir or towards the hose/handle?
 
Sports
Maybe I can help a little, got any various pics of the system? There are many flavors of Schrader valves, some are used as check valves and have weak springs intended for the purpose.

I'm wondering if someone has changed the valve, not realizing the special purpose, or if this is a drain of some sort
Hydraulic throttles are still rather unusual but they're out there and probably not gaining traction over fly by wire. My guess is yours uses an oil based fluid (ATF should be a close approximation), like the hydraulic steering systems. At any rate, perhaps someone filled it with the wrong fluid and caused some damage?
Let me take some pictures of it and maybe that’ll help you visualize what’s going on here....
 
I can't believe they would use a schrader valve as it can let air into the system.

It should be very similar to the hydraulic clutches on dirt bikes and on mountain bike brakes. They just use small bleed screws and most use mineral oil, not brake fluid or ATF.
 
Yeah, I'd be cautious with brake fluid b/c it might attack the rubber seals. Otherwise I don't see an issue with mineral oil.

The red rubber plug on the side of the reservoir looks like a duck-bill valve for allowing air to enter. I guess that's the schraeder in the tube under the reservoir thus positive pressure in the reservoir and gravity would force fluid down through (past) the schrader into the line below.

Obviously you'll have to bleed any trapped air out of the lines before it will pump correctly.

Assuming there's some issue with the schraeder as touched on, there are lots of different schraeder valves for various applications, I'm thinking of the light-springed ones used in compression gauge hoses and the automotive mightyvac hand vacuum pumps which use two of them, one to release pressure and another as a internal check valve. It would be the internal mightyvac check valve you'd want. A regular schraeder from a bicycle tire for instance would have way too much spring for the light pressure to force fluid through.

My opinion at this point is, the schraeder operates as a check valve, if installed in the wrong direction the pressurized fluid gets pushed upward into the reservoir, losing pressure and won't allow fluid to be drawn from the reservoir to take the place of any small volume of lost fluid.

That thing is pretty wild looking, haven't seen one before. :)

Maybe this one should work, I can't locate the mightyvac schraeder right now, looks like they made some changes over the years but mine uses a schraeder instead of the mushroom valve they show now.

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I don’t know why I didn’t think of this before, but I’ve got an actual 110v vacuum pump, maybe I can reverse bleed it or maybe a combination of the multiple ways you can bleed brake lines. Here’s a pick of the shrader valve,
 
I don’t know why I didn’t think of this before, but I’ve got an actual 110v vacuum pump, maybe I can reverse bleed it or maybe a combination of the multiple ways you can bleed brake lines. Here’s a pick of the shrader valve,

I don't see the pict of the schrader by itself but yeah, you have to remove the air for sure. I'd guess just loosening the various fittings perhaps at the ends of the two cylinders in logical order might be the intended approach. This will take some patience, I expect. Perhaps no, but maybe there are bleeder screws/plugs in these locations?

Some quantity of air might also be burped up through the tee fitting if the reservoir is temporarily installed with out the schraeder (don't expect pressure to operate the throttle cylinder will build while the schraeder check valve is removed, you're just working the air out at of the hand control at this point), fill the reservoir and then operate the hand control to move fluid to move back and forth through the line, eventually air trapped between the hand control and reservoir would be forced up through into the reservoir and out the top, and replaced by fluid in the reservoir. Keep the reservoir at least partially full while doing this.

The throttle actuator cylinder will still have trapped air in that line so if you can actuate it as well, this same method should work the air up through the reservoir as well.

At this point, both cylinders and all lines should be filled with fluid and minimum air. Remove the reservoir and install the schraeder then the reservoir. With the schraeder check valve installed and air removed from both cylinders and tubing, the hand control should force fluid into the throttle actuator, not into the reservoir. There must be a spring involved for the purpose of forcing fluid back into the hand control as it's released, from the throttle actuator to return to idle position.

Hopefully that makes sense....
 
Yes that makes perfect sense, thanks a lot! So your saying the scrader should be letting fluid flow (after its bled) so that it’s blocking fluid from coming back up into the resevoir? Also it does have a bleeder right on the handle (see picture above) and also a spring to make it return.
 
Oh and what would you say to use, mineral oil? Like the stuff u get from the drug store??

Ha, yeah I suppose drug store mineral oil should be fine. I'd use ATF it it were mine.

I think the issue is you don't want something that will absorb moisture like brake fluid and you don't want something that might eat swell the rubber seals like brake fluid might.

If the viscosity is too high, the action might be lethargic.

And yes, I believe you correctly described the purpose of the schraeder valve. For if the schraeder was installed backwards, pressure created by the throttle actuator would push fluid back into the reservoir thus the throttle actuator piston at the carburetor would not move, or only briefely.

For instance, if you find while operating the throttle while riding your engine speed keeps falling as if the throttle is being released, the schraeder might be leaking, allowing line pressure to bleed off into the reservoir.

I would begin the air bleeding process by removing the schraeder, install the reservoir as normal, install the bleeder plug(s) and fill the reservoir with fluid. It will be important to keep the level of fluid in the reservoir from falling to the bottom, this keeps air from entering the tubing.

Then begin actuating the hand throttle, expect this to force air up and out of the reservoir, then as you release the throttle fluid from the reservoir will displace that air. Maintain the reservoir fluid level from becoming low while doing this and pump the control until air bubbles are no longer bubbling up into the reservoir.

Then, you may remove the bleeder plug(s) one at a time, while maintaining the reservoir fluid level, and allow any further trapped air to escape from the open bleeder plugs. Careful not to induce air, keep the position of the bleeder plugs below the level of the reservoir, while fluid runs downhill inside the tubing to displace trapped air. Replace bleeder plugs.

Finally, if you're convinced the trapped air has been displaced by the fluid and see no bubbles rising up inside the reservoir while pumping the control, remove the reservoir and install the schraeder, then install and fill the reservoir so air cannot enter down into the tubing.

At this point you should have a functioning hydraulic throttle.

There's other ways to do this but this should be an effective method for purging the trapped air with fluid.
 
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