2007 GTI not starting, odd issue after replacing jet pump

[dlwn88]

This spring, the bearing in the jet pump went out on my 2007 GTI SE. I could hear some of the balls from the bearing grind at times on my way home. I almost made it home at idle speed (luckily I was close) but accidentally pulled my key and couldn’t start afterwards. During this time, I was also dealing with a battery that was near the end of its life so I figured that was likely the issue. I drifted towards another home and they charged my battery but I still couldn’t start. I figured at the time the battery was toast or the bearing was seized, luckily I grabbed a kayak paddle and made it back home.

Got busy this summer but now I’m working on the ski and everything’s now good to go with the jet pump. I installed a new battery this morning, however, it still doesn’t want to start. I did the resistance and voltage test on the starter solenoid and everything looks fine (I’ve had to replace it once or twice years ago). I can hear the fuel pump engaging and the starter relay click when I press start but nothing from the engine.

Shortly after troubleshooting I noticed my gauge cluster was now half dim and I wasn’t hearing any beeping when the key was inserted. I noticed whenever I put the key in and press start, the Omron relay that’s near the 30 AMP fuses would click. I pulled it out and looks like two of the contacts are scorched but was able to clean them off. Now I’m back to getting the beeps and the starter solenoid trying to engage but gauges are still half dim so I went ahead and ordered another relay. I also ordered another starter solenoid just incase since I’m running out of ideas.

I noticed nothing occurs when the Omron relay is pulled out and I try to start, so wondering if just this relay was creating the original issue earlier this year? I’m not sure what else to check at this point, short of checking to making sure the engine is seized, which I doubt, I’ve pretty much made my way down the shops manual troubleshooting list. I’m wondering if it could be the actual starter? Is there a way to test it without pulling it out? Curious if anyone has run into an issue like this before. Thanks!

 

[mkov608]

Yes there is a way to test the starter without pulling it out. Put an amp meter on the battery cable and measure the amperage as the ski sits. Then attempt to start the engine and measure it again. Post results. You can also put a multi meter (volts) and measure the voltage at the positive post of the starter when attempting to start; post results.

Also post a picture of the Omron relay you are talking about. Folks on the forum don't need to know who makes the relay, we need to know which relay ... I.E. starter relay etc.

 

[dlwn88]

Here is a photo of the relay. Sorry, I only mentioned Omron because I've seen other posts and videos online calling the starter solenoid a starter relay, so didn't want any confusion. Getting to the positive post on the starter is going to be difficult. Not much space, I can feel it with my hand but I'll see if I can get a a multimeter lead on it.

 

[mkov608]

Well that is neither ... that is the main relay ... see schematic below. Notice where the 30 amp fuses are.

Follow the + wire off the battery, and that leads to the starter solenoid.


Use an alligator clip on the positive post after you pull back the rubber cap. In the picture above, you can also measure the voltage at the far right terminal on the starter solenoid if that is more accessible on your ski. That goes to the starter motor.

 

[dlwn88]

Well that is neither ... that is the main relay ... see schematic below. Notice where the 30 amp fuses are.

Follow the + wire off the battery, and that leads to the starter solenoid.
View attachment 64256

Use an alligator clip on the positive post after you pull back the rubber cap. In the picture above, you can also measure the voltage at the far right terminal on the starter solenoid if that is more accessible on your ski. That goes to the starter motor.

It was just able to get an alligator clip on the positive led on the starter, shows 12.6 volts when Start button is pressed. Correct me if I'm wrong but this to me indicates a bad starter if the starter is receiving the required voltage but isn't doing anything. Wish I had an amp meter to see if it's trying to draw any power.

 

[mkov608]

That means you have power to the starter; it might be a bad starter, or it could be corrosion between the starter b+ post and the cable. Use a mirror and a bright light to inspect the connection. If corroded, clean it up and retest. If it's clean, I'd pull the starter and bench check it. Also check the three ground wires on the front of the engine block for corrosion. Clean if corroded.

 

[POPPS]

I once had a 4tec with starter issues,,,I remove red positive cable,,,there was “guck” on the terminal,,,cleaned it up,,,problem solved,,,,
you can also run a cable from the battery,,,and see how the starter responds,,,this is my “go to move” to definitely diagnose a failed starter.

 

[BGS]

What was the voltage before press start ? 12.6 seems high if it is drawing big amps.

 

[dlwn88]

That means you have power to the starter; it might be a bad starter, or it could be corrosion between the starter b+ post and the cable. Use a mirror and a bright light to inspect the connection. If corroded, clean it up and retest. If it's clean, I'd pull the starter and bench check it. Also check the three ground wires on the front of the engine block for corrosion. Clean if corroded.

So finally had a chance to put in a new starter. Now you can definitely hear it trying to engage and start the engine, but the engine doesn't crank. I'm not wondering if I should pull the plugs, spray WD-40 and see if I can move the shaft. I've read some conflicting info on how to do this with older skies so trying to figure out a method to do this that's better then just putting a pipe wrench on the shaft. Any ideas? And if it's seized, what would be my next step?

Here's a video of what it's doing:

Update: I pulled the plugs and they look a bit rusted. Not badly but a nice amount, wondering if this points towards my issue or not. Pullling the plugs and starting the ski in WOT mode has the same result: I can hear the starter turn for a moment but nothing else happens with the engine. I'm about to try to see if I can turn the shaft later.

 

[BGS]

Those plugs look awful, like maybe it got water in the engine.
I cannot tell if you are hearing starter or relay.
Seems like you should be able to turn it over with plugs out.
New Starter might be stuck.
New jet pump might be stuck.

 

[POPPS]

The white flecs is a sign of water being burned.,,pull the pump,,,maybe a seized pump bearing,,, can you do a compression test.,,,maybe partially seized piston.

 

[Milehighguy303]

By the looks of rust on the plugs, I think there is a risk that this was a water ingested engine, and the engine is seized up solid. The click you hear may be the starter engaging the Bendix or the Bendix engaging the flywheel to turn the engine over, but the engine is locked up? That would be my premise. I will assume you don’t know the history of what happened, but I would ask if possible.

I think removing the jet pump is a good start, to eliminate that as a possible locked up part. Then see if you can manually turn over the engine with plugs out by turning the output shaft. I have never done this procedure, but others have. You need to make sure the engine can turn over before you invest any time and money in the ski with a new starter, etc.

 

[mkov608]

Update: I pulled the plugs and they look a bit rusted. Not badly but a nice amount, wondering if this points towards my issue or not. Pullling the plugs and starting the ski in WOT mode has the same result: I can hear the starter turn for a moment but nothing else happens with the engine. I'm about to try to see if I can turn the shaft later.

Corrosion in the cylinders is why the manual says to spray XPS lube into each cylinder and fuel injector port when you prepare the ski for off season storage.

Pull the jet pump, order the tool that fits on the drive shaft splines, remove all spark plugs, and attempt to turn the motor over. You can spray some XPS lube into each of the cylinders or you can use some Marvel Mystery Oil (< 1 Tbls in each cylinder). I have actually used Marvel Mystery Oil to free up a seized 2-stroke engine; a friend told me about it, and I said, "It won't work." It worked. I was amazed!

They sell some inexpensive fiber scopes on Amazon that use your high resolution cell phone as the screen. You can take a look into the cylinders with that tool, but if you have damaged bearings you won't see anything. Make sure you get the scope with the articulating head.

If the engine is seized, you're going to have to pull and rebuild/replace it.

https://www.amazon.com/NIDAGE-Artic...mzn1.fos.f5122f16-c3e8-4386-bf32-63e904010ad0

 

[dlwn88]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I've always been good about spraying XPS lube or equivalent before storing and whenever required.

I believe the engine may be seized, tried turning the shaft today with no luck after having PB blaster sit in the cylinders for a couple days. I'm still in disbelief because earlier this year the original issue was that the jet pump bearing was going bad. The engine was running perfectly fine before I turned it off (I accidentally pulled the key and it never started after that, which at the time the battery was at the end of its life so I figured that was the cause). Before turning it off I could hear some grinding in the rear jet pump bearing but I thought doing a jet pump rebuild and a new battery would do the trick since nothing else was wrong.

Even though the jet pump rotated just fine before I installed it, I'll pull it to see if it's somehow preventing the engine from turning over. I can see what appears to be some light surface rust when I look into the cylinders with my eye. Then I'll try to rotate the shaft again.

At this point, I know it's not going to be worth it to repair/replace the engine. I've had the ski for over 13 years now, bought it when I was 24. I bought it for only $6k from a woman who had left Michigan to move here in Virginia, it had only seen fresh water and had 23 hours on it. Since it has been with me for several duty stations, it's been up and down the Chesapeake Bay and its tributaries countless times, all around Long Island Sound, offshore every state from Massachusetts down to North Carolina. It's rigged for fishing and has done numerous 15+ mile offshore trips. I made a ton of great memories on that ski not only by myself but with family and friends, I could easily write pages about it. It's crazy how you can get attached to a machine, it's hard to accept that this might be the end for it.

 

[BGS]

Based on your events, did you happen to get going faster than say 10 mph ?
Ski will ingest water if towed or paddled, mine says;
TOWING:
CAUTION: Failure to do this may result in damage
to the engine. If you must tow a stranded
watercraft in water and do not have a hose
pincher be sure to stay well below the maximum
towing speed of 24 km/h (15 MPH).