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Gtx starter delay

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I have a 1998 GTX RFI that I just picked up. The battery would not hold a charge so I put in a new battery. When I hit the start button the starter engages but delays for about a second and then it spins and it starts,

I did some reading on this forum and discovered that this is not uncommon and several mentioned a poor ground. I cleaned both the pos and neg connections with no change. What I noticed was that the ground connects to the far side of the engine block from the starter. I see in the manual that the GTX LTD model is grounded right beside the starter which would seem more sure. Do you think there would be any value in running a second (4 gauge) ground wire to a starter bolt? I would just leave the original ground where it is.

I guess the other possibility is the starter brushes, but it looks like a pain to take out. Anyone with first hand experience with this problem? Thx
 
I don't see a benefit to adding a new ground because if it's original then it should be OK just as it is. If anything the starter selanoid would be my first go for things to do. arc that puppy over and see if it hesitates then. Before doing that tho test cranking volts . Also try checking your volts on the side of the selanoid to check cranking voltage make sure your getting no much to any drop should be at least 11.2
 
You may be onto something good with the brushes but if was going out it would more likely be nothing at all turning over and you would have to bang on the starter to get the brushes to contact. So not likely the issue.
 
Have u checked voltage using positive lead on battery and negative lead on case? Because that starter is grounded by the case from the ground wire that goes to the case
 
Cables and connections are the number one issue with skis in general.

You will never hurt anything by running additional grounds, at the very minimum it is cheap insurance. If it were me, I'd run a new cable from the batter to the block as well. This is a cheap addition and they fail often.

If you can PROVE the battery is good and the cables and connections are good, then you have a starter issue..

You can use a DVOM to check for LOADED voltage. First, across the battery terminals while cranking, then at each main joint. Such as the input and out put of the solenoid, the starter, and where the grounds are. If you read 12 volts loaded at the battery then you should also read it at the starter. If it drops along the way, you found the issue...
 
Cables and connections are the number one issue with skis in general.

You will never hurt anything by running additional grounds, at the very minimum it is cheap insurance. If it were me, I'd run a new cable from the batter to the block as well. This is a cheap addition and they fail often.

If you can PROVE the battery is good and the cables and connections are good, then you have a starter issue..

You can use a DVOM to check for LOADED voltage. First, across the battery terminals while cranking, then at each main joint. Such as the input and out put of the solenoid, the starter, and where the grounds are. If you read 12 volts loaded at the battery then you should also read it at the starter. If it drops along the way, you found the issue...

Super. I will do both of those suggestions and report back in a few days.
 
Replace the starter relay. It's on it's way out and will only get worse.

Chester
 
So I put in a second ground right from the battery to the starter bolt. Made no difference. Disappointed and it is a pain getting at the starter.

Next I checked voltage during cranking. Dropped from 12.6 to 8.6 momentarily and then back up to 12+ when starter started cranking. I am guessing that is low. It is a new battery and old one did the same thing.

Bridged across the relay and it did the same thing. So I don't think it is the problem. I am guessing this is an old problem as the previous owner said it always started like that. Also the starter looks new and the cables all have DIY soldered ends.

Maybe I should try cranking with the plugs just for interests sake.
 
Well, I found this great post by CoastieJoe on checking voltage. This is my next step when I get back to lake next weekend.

Voltage Drop Test

Using a DVOM (Digital Volt Ohm Meters) you can test for continuity as well as voltage. If you check a connection for continuity, it can show good as it does have a connection but it can still be bad as the connection is no good for voltage. To clarify, there are hundreds of strands of wires within a battery cable. If most of the strands are bad or corroded, it will show a good continuity connection but the strands will not be able to send good voltage from the battery to the starter or starter solenoid… It would be fine for a light electrical load, but not a heavy amperage load like a starter requires. Thus,,, the starter barely turns or does not turn.

To isolate where the issue is, a Voltage Drop Test is the only truly effective means to find the answer without tearing things down.

A load will be required to do this test, in our case, that load is almost always the starter and in some case can be a starter solenoid if it is dirty and corroded on the inside.

Generally speaking, when you test across an item you WANT a 0.1 volt difference. However, 0.4 is acceptable for items such as a starter. Long cables and starter solenoids should be 0.2 or 0.3 difference.

CHECKING THE STARTER CIRCUIT
To check the starter circuit for excessive resistance, you need to measure the voltage drop at the battery, battery cable connections and starter while the engine is being cranked.

The first check is "available battery voltage." For the starter to crank at normal speed, the battery must be at least 75% charged (12.4 volts or higher). Low battery voltage can not only affect the starter but every other electrical system on the ski. Do NOT have it on a charger or being jumped at the time of this test. It will make all values incorrect.

A. Chances are it will not start already, so this step is not required. However, if it does start, then disable the engine so it will not start when it is cranked (Ground the ignition coil wire, or disable the ignition circuit or fuel pump relay.) Limit cranking time to 15 seconds or less.

B. Set your DVOM to the 20 volt scale, then connect meters positive (+) lead to battery positive (+) post (not the clamp or cable), and the meters negatives (-) lead to battery negative (-) post. Crank the engine and make a note of the displayed voltage.

C. Connect your meters positive (+) lead to the battery terminal stud on the starter, and the meters negative (-) lead to the starter housing. Yes, it is easier to start at the battery and work your way to these connections, but this will confirm if you have a voltage drop issue or not. If so, then continue with the test.

E. While cranking the engine, record the volt reading.

F. Compare the two voltage readings. If both are the same, there are no excessive voltage drops on the positive feed side.

G. If available voltage at the starter is not within one (1) volt of battery voltage, there is excessive voltage drop in the circuit.

The next test is for voltage drop on the positive side of the starter circuit.
A. Make sure the battery is fully charged.
B. Disable ignition.
C. Set DVM on 2 volt scale.

D. Connect the meters positive (+) lead to positive (+) battery post, and the meters negative (-) lead to the terminal stud on the starter (positive wire from solenoid). While cranking the engine, record the voltage reading.

The maximum allowable voltage drop including the solenoid or external relay in the starter circuit should be 0.6 volts or less.
If you find more than a 0.6 volt drop in the starter circuit, you can isolate the bad connection by using the following voltage drop tests.

* Check the positive battery post and cable connection by measuring the voltage drop between the two while cranking the engine. Connect the meters positive lead to the battery post and the meters negative lead to the cable clamp. A good post/cable connection should have zero voltage drop.

* Check the positive battery cable by measuring the voltage drop end to end (test lead on cable end, not the battery) while cranking the engine. Connect the meters positive lead to the clamp on the positive battery cable, and the meters negative lead to the end of the cable at the starter. Crank the engine and note the voltage reading. A good cable should have a voltage drop of 0.2 volts or less.

* To check the starter solenoid or relay connections, connect the meters positive lead to positive battery terminal on the solenoid or relay, and the meters negative lead to the starter motor terminal. Crank the engine and note the reading. A good connection should have a voltage drop of 0.2 volts or less. This will test the solenoid and the cable going to the starter. To test ONLY the solenoid, take the negative lead to the OUTPUT side of the solenoid. Crank the engine. The voltage drop should be 0.2 volts or less. If it is 0.3 or more, replace the solenoid as the internal contacts are dirty.

Next, you need to check the negative side of the starter circuit. To check the entire circuit, connect the meters positive lead to a clean spot on the starter motor case and the meters negative lead to the negative battery post. Crank the engine and note the reading. The voltage drop on the negative side should be 0.3 volts or less.

If the voltage drop is too high, set your DVOM to the 2 volt scale and start checking each connection on the negative side to find the bad connection or cable. Use the DVOM leads to check across each connection while cranking the engine as before.

Check the negative battery post/ground cable connection (should be zero voltage drop).
Check the negative ground cable from the battery to the engine (should be 0.2 volts or less).
Check between the negative battery post and starter housing (should be 0.3 volts or less). (I do not think any of our skis have a negative post, but if yours does, then do this test).
Check between the engine block and starter housing (should be 0.10 volts or less).

Yes, this is a lot of different steps. But if you follow them, you WILL find where your electrical issue is in regards to a voltage drop or defective item.
 
So I ran these voltage tests and they were all between .17 and .25 V. It seems I am not losing line voltage.

I pulled one spark plug out and they was only a very slight delay when cranking. With both plugs out there was no delay at all. I wonder if i should have got a higher amp battery. This one has 240 CCA. I saw a gel battery at Napa that had 325 CCA in the same size.
 
Ok. One more test. Ground on battery and hot at the starter if you can get there then crank it.

if you can't get there, then the output of the solenoid. But at the starter would be best.
 
With the black on battery neg, the starter post pos was 10.38. The out on relay it was 10.44. The in to relay was 10.51. The battery pos terminal was 10.57. (I was incorrect when I said before that it was cranking at 12.20.)
 
You either have a junk battery or a starter with bad brushes.

Pull the battery and get it load tested. If it drops to the 11 volt range on the load test it is junk.

Your voltage drop along the line is good as far as what each component is losing as the voltage travels.

But, the over-all voltage is not good.

Do the load test at s local auto parts store and we will have the answer,,,,
 
At 10.8 volts many of the MPEMs do not function properly and the ski will not start. So the 11 volt thing is not just about the battery voltage but the components around it.
 
Yes, I understand that. Although, a load test puts a larger load on the battery than the starter does. A load test is performed at 3 times the amp hour rating of the battery (half the cold cranking amps) and could go below 10 volts yet still crank a starter at 11 volts.

Chester
 
Won't argue against that. But a separate load test in this case will tell us if it is a battery or the starter that is creating the heavier than normal load.
 
I am out at the cottage and I have not had a chance yet to bring the battery into town and have it load tested. However, your voltage comment is even more significant than I thought. The ski is not keeping the battery charged. The low 12V light has been going on. When I check the output I have discovered that sometimes the machine is discharging while running. It might show 12.5V not running and then 12.2v while running. I checked the mag output which seems to be 20V AC. So I figured it must be a rectifier issue. Next time I check it will show 13.2V at idle and is charging. Take it for a ride and it is discharging again. Frustrating. Any thoughts?
 
I replaced the rectifier today and so far I am seeing good charging and no Low 12V warning. But the biggest surprise is that for the most part the delay in the starter is gone. Once in a while i get a bit of a delay but mostly good. So at the end of the day the battery/charging system was just not putting out enough juice. I think if I had a higher CCA battery I would not have an issue. Thought I should let everyone know that I may have resolution. Thanks for all your help.
 
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