carbon seal and ring alternative

[undecided]

Guys, I've had some cavitation issues for some time now, this morning I got the boat in the water and greased up the carbon ring and seal, I now am quite sure this is where my problem lies. My question is, I think I remember seeing something about a bearing alternative to the seal and ring. I found this on ebay, is this the alternative....and does anyone know if this fits a 2003 sportster le?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Sea-...tZPersonalQ5fWatercraftQ5fParts#ht_1615wt_734

Has anyone changed from a seal and ring to one of these, is it recommended?

thanks

 

[DonoBBD]

I have not done one but that looks to be a nice trick part and I bet works great.

Don.

 

[CaptSteve]

I believe Sea Doo replaced the bearing with the Carbon Seal because the bearing was actually more problematic. The carbon seal arrangement is what is used on most modern boats. It is known as a drip less seal since it does not require water to drip into the boat to cool the bearing. The bearing requires water either drip through the bearing or you need to supply water to the boot to cool the bearing.

My understanding is that when properly maintained and greased, the carbon seal should not leak and provides a better arrangement.

 

[undecided]

Thanks captain, I replaced my carbon seal, but not the floating ring/carbon ring, and my cavitation is no better, however on my last outing I tried to put as much grease in and around the carbon seal and ring, I also pushed the drive shaft further towards the pump in hope of placing more pressure on the carbon seal with the ring. When I first got the boat in the water the cavitation was worse than it's ever been. I then fiddled with the ring and seal pushing them about, loads of water then entered the boat, so I kept moving them about until the water stopped gushing in, tested it again and the cavitation seemed to clear up considerably. So I'm sure this is my issue, do I need to replace the floating ring/carbon ring or can these be refurbbed, i.e. grind the face plate of the ring so it's smooth and then just replace the two o-rings?

I've seen this written but don't understand what he means "I still have the original bellows , but I just moved it fwd on the shaft without any shim."

Can someone please elaborate on this?

 

[craigy]

Carbon seal is the way to go,but any time I jack with the pump,I have to reposition[in water,first time back on lake] the seal to ring location. In other words you have to find the sweet spot and it stays until the next time I remove the pump. I wouldn`t grease it. Also the tenstion from bellows to ring [retaining clip/or o-ring] is a two handed job.

 

[undecided]

Thanks, so can I recondition the floating ring/seal by grinding it?

 

[DonoBBD]

If your to do that I would place 600 grit water sand paper on a piece of glass and work your way up to 1000 or even 1500. The glass will keep the flattest surface and the fine grits will make it as smooth and flat as glass.

Don.

 

[CaptSteve]

If you are going to the trouble of putting a new carbon seal on, I would suggest you replace the o-rings, floating ring, and bellows all at the same time. These are all machined surfaces. It would be difficult to get a perfect face on the floating ring with hand tools.

You should check that there are no nicks, scratches, or score marks on the polished surface of the shaft. This area must be very smooth.

The bellows is what pushes the face of the carbon seal against the face of the floating ring. If these two faces are not perfectly smooth you will get leakage.

The o-rings stop water from coming in around the shaft. If they are pinched, dried out, or twisted, you will leak. The o-rings must be seated correctly into the grooves on the floating ring.

If the bellows does not get compressed enough when you clip the floating ring in place, you need to add a spacer to increase the pressure. The service manual states you need greater than 5/16" difference between unloaded and loaded length of the bellows.

The service manual warns against getting grease on the carbon ring, floating ring or O-rings. Grease will cause the o-rings to slide out of the groove and allow water to leak in.

 

[undecided]

Ok, from what you guys are saying I'm not going to mess about with trying to recon the floating ring myself. I've already put a new carbon seal on, just the floating ring along with it's o-rings still need changing, I didn't realise these would need changing as well, otherwise i would have done so when I had the lot apart.

CaptSteve, this spacer that you speak of. does it go at the very beginning of the bellows....where the shaft enters the hull? And what kind of spacer are we talking about...do i need to get something machined? or do people use something else specifically?

 

[DonoBBD]

If you are going to the trouble of putting a new carbon seal on, I would suggest you replace the o-rings, floating ring, and bellows all at the same time. These are all machined surfaces. It would be difficult to get a perfect face on the floating ring with hand tools.

You should check that there are no nicks, scratches, or score marks on the polished surface of the shaft. This area must be very smooth.

The bellows is what pushes the face of the carbon seal against the face of the floating ring. If these two faces are not perfectly smooth you will get leakage.

The o-rings stop water from coming in around the shaft. If they are pinched, dried out, or twisted, you will leak. The o-rings must be seated correctly into the grooves on the floating ring.

If the bellows does not get compressed enough when you clip the floating ring in place, you need to add a spacer to increase the pressure. The service manual states you need greater than 5/16" difference between unloaded and loaded length of the bellows.

The service manual warns against getting grease on the carbon ring, floating ring or O-rings. Grease will cause the o-rings to slide out of the groove and allow water to leak in.

Don't scare the crap out of the guy this part is a very simple part and really basic.

On the stainless ring that pushes up against the carbon ring you need to replace the Orings inside (two O rings ) and the bellows. The bellows could have cracks or one of the Orings could be cracked or flat spotted. When you gear clamp or hose clamp the bellows to the rear of the boat then to the carbon ring you need to make a seal with them. Now that bellows puts pressure on the stainless ring that is held in place by and Oring (older way) or a clip (new way) both ways work fine I still use the old O ring way. If you do not have the correct drive shaft this grove that is in the shaft to hold this stainless ring in the correct place may not be in the correct place. ( run into this too )

I have much more than 5/16 pre load on my bellows. I am 1 1/2" any ways with a new bellows, and could hardly push the bellows back by hand to get the O ring in the correct grove.

If there is no grove that your finger nail can catch in the drive shaft where the O rings ride on just below the O ring keeper grove ( or clip grove ) OR that there is not a grove big enough to catch your finger nail on the two surfaces the carbon ring and stainless ring make the seal your good.

Just get enough pressure on the bellows with the stainless ring and your golden. If the drive shaft is bent you may have a very hard time making a seal. Tow ropes will bend the drive shaft and small very hard stones. I bent my shaft with a stone and she would not seal correct. The two surfaces will not stay flat as they turn and you will get a small gap or bounce off the seal.

It is a very simple system if you have flat surfaces, good O rings, good seal on the bellows, enough pressure on the bellows, and everything running true nothing can go wrong.

Don.

 

[undecided]

thanks Don, I just have the one groove for the C clip on the shaft.

Do you know anything about using a spacer on tyhe bellows? where it goes, and do I buy it or have it made? I'm assuming I would need one of these seeing as I only have the one C clip groove...

My issue is that I'm located in Cyprus, which means no second hand parts available, I need to buy everything from the states, and usually the shipping charges are higher than the item cost. So I'd like to try and see if the spacer solves my issues before splashing out on a new drive shaft with postage...

 

[DonoBBD]

What I did was have a shop cut a grove in my drive shaft closer to the back of the boat or drive shaft. IF you put the clip on and there is not enough pressure on the bellows then just add washers or shims to put more pressure on the bellows. I personally would push the bellows ahead as much as I can yet keep a good seal on the rear clamp on the bellows. This can get you .25 of an inch of more pressure with out a shim. The idea of the shims is to add more pressure from the motor side or clip side of the bellows and carbon ring.

I would move the bellows to the motor as much as I could with keeping a good seal with the gear clamp then pull the carbon ring out as much as you can from the bellows yet still keep a good seal with the gear clamps first. If you can't get the pressures need to keep a seal and all the O rings are good then I would pull the drive shaft and cut a grove back farther.

This last 1996 Seadoo one jet I had to do this to because the drive shaft was not the correct shaft. A $10 grove cut at 98mm from the motor end fixed the problem all up.

Hope this helps you out.

Cheers Don.

 

[undecided]

Thanks Don, very helpful!