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Bought my first SeaDoo, Awesome Fun! May have an issue. . .

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micropterus

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Hi everybody, I'm new to the forum and new to SeaDoos as well. Bought my first one about 2 weeks ago. I picked up a 2003 GTX SC with 70hrs. Took it out last weekend and had a blast. I was totally caught off guard when I nailed the throttle and it sucked all of my internal organs against my spine. Awesome. Topped out at about 63 on the speedo and revved all the way to roughly 7,600 rpm.

The only issue I noticed, was that from idle, if I nail the throttle, it seems to do something like a burnout in a car. It revs up, bounces off the limiter, but doesn't really launch forward. From what I've read, it sounds like some cavitation? The ski has a brand new wear ring. I looked in the pump and the vanes are a little chewed up on the impeller side, but being behind the impeller, it shouldn't cause my issue right?

I'm looking to tow skis/wakeboards this weekend and I'm concerned that the hole shot may be too weak to get someone out of the water fast enough.

Any info you could provide would be great. Thanks! I've lurked this site for about 2 weeks now, so I know some of you guys ought to have the info.
 
How do you know the pump wear ring is new? Did you change it or have it changed yourself? You may need to pull the pump so you can get a better look at the leading edges of the impeller and the wear ring clearances.

What you're feeling (aka burnout in a car) is called "cavitation" it happens when the pump sucks air in with the water and a mix of bubbles goes thru the pump as a result (bubbles don't "pump" well at all, they let the impeller "slip"). 1 possibility is that your carbon ring seal (inside the hull, back where the driveshaft goes into the pump tunnel), is either worn or worn out or mis-adjusted. There's is a rubber bellows back there at the front of the pump tunnel that the engine driveshaft goes in to... inside the front of that bellows is a ring of carbon that is pressed against a stainless steel ring on the driveshaft, the 2 are just pushed together tightly to form a watertight seal. If the bellows doesn't have enough tension on it then hard suction from the pump can pull the carbon ring back and suck air from inside your hull into the jetpump, causing severe cavitation. If you can look inside your hull towards the back where the jet pump tunnel is and find that bellows (you may need to remove some air tubing and push things aside to get down there) take your hand and try to pull or push the front of the bellows back towards the stern of the hull. If you *can* push or pull that bellows back opening up a gap in the front of the bellows (which is where the carbon ring is) then it's not tight enough or the bellows is possibly worn out (I'm told it can dry-rot with age). It should be VERY hard to open up a gap in the front of the bellows. See thread I started just 2 days ago regarding Carbon Ring replacement.

- Michael
 
I know the wear ring is new because I have the receipt/bill from when it was replace in October of '11 when it was winterized.

I've read your other thread as well, I thought I had linked and mentioned it in this thread, but I'm new, so I may have screwed it up.

I will check the carbon ring/bellows tonight. I haven't actually seen this bellows/ring setup yet, so I'm trying to envision it. Does the bellows need to be applying pressure/pushing towards the bow or stern of the ski?
 
micropterus said:
I know the wear ring is new because I have the receipt/bill from when it was replace in October of '11 when it was winterized.

Does the bellows need to be applying pressure/pushing towards the bow or stern of the ski?
Click to expand...

Okie-dokie, when they replaced the wear ring they should have mentioned if there was any problem with the impeller then so we can presume it's in ok condition.

The bellows applies pressure towards the bow, pushing the carbon ring (in the front of the bellows) against a stainless steel ring that is sealed (by internal o-rings) onto the driveshaft. The stainless steel ring turns with the driveshaft, the carbon ring stays put inside the bellows. This makes a watertight/airtight seal when everything is working right. The forward band clamp on the bellows holds the carbon ring, the rear band clamp secures the bellows to the pump tunnel (fiberglass, a molded part of the hull). The bellows can be adjusted by loosening the rear bellows clamp and pulling the end of the bellows forward (applying more pressure to the carbon ring) and then re-tightening the clamp. This assumes your bellows is in good condition of course, it should be firm but pliable rubber.

- Michael
 
2003 GTX SC still had the plastic pump and it flexes a lot and will eat a wear ring in no time and may cavitate all the time. in 2004, the same model went to the aluminum pump and is greatly improved. you can either change your wear ring very frequently or get a newer style pump. back when they were under warranty, seadoo would change the pump to the al style free of charge if you complained enough but they never made it a campaign.
 
Thanks so much for the detailed description. I will check it out when I get home tonight and try to report back tomorrow. I really hope this turns out to be a simple fix. . .
 
seadoo actually tried to put a bandaid on the pump when they realized it was a problem just before production start by using a metal bracket on the right side of the pump to the wall of the hull. it was unsuccessful but they launched it that year anyway, lots of complaints about cavitation when gunning it from a dead stop and wear rings only lasting a few hours and the cavitation will only get worse the more you gun it. the newer aluminum pump is the only solution but at least that completely solved it.
 
ski-d00 said:
seadoo actually tried to put a bandaid on the pump when they realized it was a problem just before production start by using a metal bracket on the right side of the pump to the wall of the hull. it was unsuccessful but they launched it that year anyway, lots of complaints about cavitation when gunning it from a dead stop and wear rings only lasting a few hours and the cavitation will only get worse the more you gun it. the newer aluminum pump is the only solution but at least that completely solved it.
Click to expand...


Well dang. What's something like that going to run me if I wanted to get it updated to the alum?
 
Ok, I found the carbon ring. I removed the large (air intake tube?) to get a good view and gently pulled back the little rubber boot cover to reveal the stainless collar. The carbon ring doesn't have any chips or nicks that I can see from the top side. If I reach down there, I can move the bellows (accordion looking rubber deal) back towards the stern of the hull. This is with just two fingers on the bellows and the back of my hand kinda leveraged on the SC. I can pull it back maybe a half inch. Is this too loose? I know it is supposed to have a little bit of up/down left/right play to it, but back and forth?
 
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Your carbon ring is sealing fine if you are getting 63mph and 7600 rpms. You should be able to move it backwards a little, that's normal. Your problem is the pump and broken veins won't help the situation.

Last fall I changed a wear ring on an 03 GTX SC with a perfect impeller and it still had slight cavitation, kinda of a pulsing growling noise for the first 3 or 4 seconds but then reached top speed and rpms. This is unavoidable with this pump and makes it worse when you have more weight or more load on the ski.

Your best bet is to find a used 4tec aluminum pump on ebay for a couple hundred.
 
Yeah the only time I notice it is at full throttle from idle. Once it gets moving, it runs like a champ. Prior research has taught me that my RPMs and top speed are where they should be. I just didn't know what to expect out of the hole.

Is a pump swap a reasonable DIY job that can be done in my garage? I think I've read that I would need one, maybe two, specialty tools. . .
 
impeller tool is all you'll need if you have to swap the impeller, simple 30 minute job even for a novice. note that impeller shaft size is different for the different hp 4tec motors.
 
micropterus said:
If I reach down there, I can move the bellows (accordion looking rubber deal) back towards the stern of the hull. This is with just two fingers on the bellows and the back of my hand kinda leveraged on the SC. I can pull it back maybe a half inch. Is this too loose?
Click to expand...

Well I sure can't begin to pull mine back with just 2 fingers. It takes all my strength to push the bellows on my '06 RXT back far enough to expose the clip on the stainless steel ring on the driveshaft in fact (little less than 1/2 inch that). It isn't easy on mine at all. IDK if yours is supposed to be easily moved back or not... seems strange to me. Mine does not have a plastic jetpump though... and gotta wonder what happened to mess up the bowl vanes in your pump so badly.

The large tube helps to circulate the incoming air thru-out the inside of your hull so fumes don't accumulate anywhere in there possibly causing a risk of explosion. Don't discard it!

Regards.

- Michael
 
I may try tightening and moving the bellows up a bit and see what happens. Previous owner claims she sucked up a "pebble" which led to the wear ring replacement. After seeing the vanes chewed up, I'm thinking that "pebble" was more of a "rock".

As far as DIY repairs go, I'm almost 30 and I still get coloring books for Christmas. My tool box contains zip ties, duct tape, and gorilla glue. Show me the way!!!
 
Ok, so I attempted to put a redneck bandaid on what may or may not be a bellows that has lost some tension. Being instantly discouraged at the thought of having to remove the pump and driveshaft, I explored the possibilities of engineering some sort of bellows support that required not removing anything.

I took an Agricultural Mechanics class in high school, so I knew that there must be some form of improvised tools in my garage. I ended up using some flexible tubing from an empty bottle of Ortho Home Defense Max bug killer. I methodically wound the small hose down into the valleys of the bellows, tied a double overhand knot, and then secured the knot with a small zip tie to prevent it from coming untied.

I can tell that the bellows now takes more effort to compress than it did prior to reinforcement. I'll report back with results once I can get it in the water again.
 
I'll give you an A for inginuity, but I believe you can just loosen the back band clamp and pull the back end of the bellows forward a little bit then resecure the clamp to increase the bellows tension on the carbon ring.

- Michael
 
Moving the back end of the bellows up was actually my first choice, but lack of a 3rd and 4th hand prevented me from being able to do it. I could move it forward a little, but it was pretty much impossible for me to hold it in the forward position and retighten the band clamp at the same time.
 
well, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it doesn't change anything after your next test run.
 
micropterus said:
Moving the back end of the bellows up was actually my first choice, but lack of a 3rd and 4th hand prevented me from being able to do it. I could move it forward a little, but it was pretty much impossible for me to hold it in the forward position and retighten the band clamp at the same time.
Click to expand...

Ahhh! Ok... makes sense. When I put the driveshaft back into my RXT I remember it took everything I had to push the stainless steel washer and bellows back far enough to put the clip on the driveshaft, I was totally wiped out afterwards and pulled more than a few muscles! Hurt for days afterwards. Another poster on here recommended making a lever tool with a fork in 1 end out of wood to push/pull the accordian bellows when needed (as opposed to spending ~$100 on a manufactured tool... they do sell a tool just for this job).

This may or may not make a noticable difference. But it sure can't hurt. If it doesn't make a difference then you're going to have to spend some time and money on your jetpump I don't know if the vanes alone can be replaced or if it'd be better to just replace the entire pump with a good take-out used pump.

But, I swear that your description of the craft's behavior makes me think it has been sucking air into the pump thru the carbon ring seal under hard accelleration. The vanes inside the back of the pump counter the spin of the water coming off the impeller, unless they're physically blocking the water flow I cannot see how they'd affect your low end accelleration. But go ride it and see if anything has changed by tightening up that bellows and see what it does.

- Michael
 
I would agree with you Michael if I haven't lived through this issue 50 times or more on the 03 GTX SC and battled with SeaDoo on several occasions.

BRP is not good at admitting they make mistakes even when they know it and put a bandaid on it and they make a design change the next year to solve it. They say it is just for general improvement, yeah right.

So micro, look the back of your pump and tell my why that is the only model to have that metal bracket on the right hand side connected to the side of the hull? BRP wouldn't answer it either.

The plastic pump works fine on the 155hp but not worth a crap on the 185hp.

You don't really need a tool to put the collar and c-clip on but helps make it easier, not faster though. The trick is lots of twisting while pushing on and a slightly greased shaft helps. Once you do it a few times, it's not hard but you do have to be in the right position and a few sore muscles that don't normally get used is inevitable.
 
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micropterus said:
I'm hoping to have it out this Saturday. We'll see.
Click to expand...

We shall see. No harm in trying the simple stuff 1st though.

I'm aware of BRP's reputation: Cermic clutch washers that crack break and fall down into the engines blocking oil screens and oil passages, hollow exhaust valve stems that corrode and break destroying piston and cylinder, 2011 IS models that sink when the footwells fill with water at anchor, other models that sink due to storage compartments that aren't watertight but were supposed to be... and BRP accepts absolutely no responsibility for any of these serious design flaws. It's sad. :-(

It's like whatever SeaDoo watercraft a person buys you have to find out and fix as many of the manufacturer flaws as you can if you want to keep and be able to enjoy the thing for any length of time.

A plastic jetpump is news to me I admit this. I've only 1st hand experience with my '06 RXT I never owned a PWC previously but I had to fix and assemble the engine and re-install the engine and jetpump myself so I have a pretty good handle on this '06 RXT's internals as well as over 2 decades of owning and maintaining my jetboat. :driving:

- Michael
 
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