Bilge pump service help needed

[Seadoobuddy]

While reading other posts/threads about new bilge pumps I got to thinking about mine.........

This is on the 99GSX L ski.
Brad & his techs ( [MENTION=35752]Rampage[/MENTION] ) at Action Yamaha in Bradenton, Fl installed a new pump while doing other work on the ski. They did a great job.
The old Rule 500 pump quit for whatever reason.

He had to "hotwire" the new pump as there is a breakage somewhere in the harness. I think he said He wired it directly to power. So now it comes on whenever the harness is connected, whether or not the lanyard is on/off, the motor is on/off or if the ski is in the water or not.

My question is can I splice into that "hotwire" and install a on/off switch. I realize that it would come on ONLY when I flipped the switch. If so what type of switch should I buy?
OR
buy a new harness.....IDK if it's just for the pump or not.
Remember the ski is 2000 miles away from me so I can't look it until May30th ...we will have to rely on what Brad chimes in with. Hopefully someone else will understand better than I do (not hard to do BTW)
He very patiently tried to explain to me over the phone, but he lost me when he said "bypass or wired directly"

 

[Coastiejoe]

While reading other posts/threads about new bilge pumps I got to thinking about mine.........

This is on the 99GSX L ski.
Brad & his techs ( [MENTION=35752]Rampage[/MENTION] ) at Action Yamaha in Bradenton, Fl installed a new pump while doing other work on the ski. They did a great job.
The old Rule 500 pump quit for whatever reason.

He had to "hotwire" the new pump as there is a breakage somewhere in the harness. I think he said He wired it directly to power. So now it comes on whenever the harness is connected, whether or not the lanyard is on/off, the motor is on/off or if the ski is in the water or not.

My question is can I splice into that "hotwire" and install a on/off switch. I realize that it would come on ONLY when I flipped the switch. If so what type of switch should I buy?
OR
buy a new harness.....IDK if it's just for the pump or not.
Remember the ski is 2000 miles away from me so I can't look it until May30th ...we will have to rely on what Brad chimes in with. Hopefully someone else will understand better than I do (not hard to do BTW)
He very patiently tried to explain to me over the phone, but he lost me when he said "bypass or wired directly"

You will want an ON/OFF switch. Which means, when you flip the switch it becomes and stays open or closed. You don't want a momentary switch which would be a switch the is closed (completes the circuit) only when pushed and held in.

Yes, you could splice in the power feed to install the switch. I would install a float switch or water sensor switch at the same time. This way is will work if you leave it a dock for example and something begins to leak water into the hull.

 

[Seadoobuddy]

OK thanks.
Is this type of "float" switch wired the same as an on/off switch???

What are the better brand of switches? Boat place, auto parts store, online???

 

[Coastiejoe]

OK thanks.
Is this type of "float" switch wired the same as an on/off switch???

What are the better brand of switches? Boat place, auto parts store, online???

A float switch is exactly that, an ON/OFF switch that is activated as water level raises within the hull. A marine store will normally have a better quality switch but they can easily be bought at auto part stores. Only thing you care about is the amperage that the switch can handle. You can read your pump to determine the amps its draws. If you can't read the pump just look up one online that is the same size..

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Do you know if your new bilge pump is auto with float switch, auto by timed water sense, or manually operated? Whichever type, I'm sure you need some sort of toggle control switch unless you prefer it to run constantly with the gauge power only, but that doesn't allow you to leave ski in water unattended(auto pump) for long periods.

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/installing-bilge-pump.asp
A simple wiring diagram for manually operated pump is here:
http://www.attwoodmarine.com/userfiles/store/product/files/990/tsunami-bilge-pump-instr.pdf
Here's a wiring diagram for an automatic float switch type of pump:
http://www.attwoodmarine.com/userfiles/store/product/files/875/0sahara series pump.pdf

A third option would be to wire the pump positive lead into your gauge system so the pump is powered with the gauges. In this case the pump would be running constantly while gauge power is on.

 

[LouDoo]

Tim,

What model pump do you have? The easiest one to wire is either a self sensing or one with a built in float. A have a self sensing and it's very easy to wire.

Ya know, maybe you should just have Brad to hook it up for you. It will save you time when you get to Florida.

Lou

 

[Seadoobuddy]

Tim,

What model pump do you have? The easiest one to wire is either a self sensing or one with a built in float. A have a self sensing and it's very easy to wire.
Ya know, maybe you should just have Brad to hook it up for you. It will save you time when you get to Florida.
Lou

IDK the brand of the pump.........let me look at the invoice and see if it's listed.........

....No not listed just says part # 25s a 3 wire bilge pump, maybe I'll call or PM him and see if he knows off hand.

 

[Seadoobuddy]

OK, I googled it and it's a Rule 500, the same as i had as OEM.....It's an auto sensor pump


Rule 25S Marine Rule 500 Automatic Marine Bilge Pump (500-GPH, 12-Volt)
by Rule
41 customer reviews
List Price: $81.99
Price: $53.59 & FREE Shipping. Details
You Save: $28.40 (35%)
In Stock.
Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.
Want it Saturday, Feb. 22? Order within 20 hrs 56 mins and choose Saturday Delivery at checkout. Details

Automatic 12-volt marine bilge pump
1.9-amp draw; 2.5-amp fuse
Pumps automatically when the water level pushes the float up
3/4-inch discharge outlet
Three-year warranty

 

[Seadoobuddy]

more info on pump.......

Product Description
Amazon.com
Built for efficient and reliable operation, the Rule 25S Marine Rule 500 Bilge Pump starts working automatically as soon as the water level pushes the float up. Ideal for smaller craft, the compact 12-volt pump has an amp draw of 1.9 and a 2.5-amp fuse. The pump measures just 4 by 2 3/8 inches and is equipped with a 3/4-inch discharge unit to effectively remove water.

Specifications:

Voltage: 12 Volt DC
Amp Draw: 1.9 amp
Fuse Size: 2.5 amp
Discharge Unit: 3/4 inch
Dimensions: 4 by 2 3/8 inches
Weight: 11 ounces

Product Description
Rule 500

The Rule 500 offers many design features while keeping size and cost to a minimum. Especially popular on smaller craft, Rule 500 pumps are unmatched in pumping power and longevity. 3/4" (19mm) discharge outlet. 12 Volts DC unless noted.

Features:

Computerized operation - no floats switch required.....So I guess I just need an on/off switch
Fully Submersible
Easy clean snap lock strainer
Silent and vibrationless operation
Anti-airlock protection
Compact, efficient long life motor
Ignition protected
No burn-out when run dry....why is this? Can it run continuously then?
Rust and Corrosion protection
Used by leading boatbuilders worldwide
marine grade blocked wiring

 

[LouDoo]

O.K., here's the way I would wire the pump. There should be three wires from the pump. A brown wire, a white wire and a black wire.

Connect the black wire directly to the neg. terminal of the battery.

Get an automotive type fuse holder and a 3amp. fuse, connect this directly to the pos. terminal of the battery, connect the other end of the fuse holder to a SPST switch, connect the other terminal of the switch to the brown wire from the bilge pump.

The white wire from the bilge pump is +12volt always on, just fold this wire over and put some shrink tubing on it, you won't use this wire.

So with this setup when you turn the switch on you will have power to the pump and the pump will only activate when there is enough water in the bilge for the internal float to activate the pump. When you turn the switch to the off position there will be no power to the bilge pump.

If you want the pump to run without the float switch you can hook the unused white wire to a SPDT switch, personally I think this is superfluous but it's there if you want it.

Rule makes a water resistant SPST switch which is what I used, you can also get either the SPST or SPDT switch at Radio Shack.

Lou

 

[jammin777]

will the rule 500 draw amperage from the battery if switch is left on but pump not running when dry?

 

[LouDoo]

will the rule 500 draw amperage from the battery if switch is left on but pump not running when dry?

Well, it depends on which Rule pump you have, if you have a self sensing type, the answer is yes, because this pump checks for water every 30 seconds and will run for a short period of time, 5 sec. I think.

If you have the pump with and internal float then technically no, but it's still a good idea to have an on/off switch just in case something gets jambed in the float.

Lou

 

[Seadoobuddy]

O.K., here's the way I would wire the pump. There should be three wires from the pump. A brown wire, a white wire and a black wire.
Connect the black wire directly to the neg. terminal of the battery.
Get an automotive type fuse holder and a 3amp. fuse, connect this directly to the pos. terminal of the battery, connect the other end of the fuse holder to a SPST switch, connect the other terminal of the switch to the brown wire from the bilge pump.
The white wire from the bilge pump is +12volt always on, just fold this wire over and put some shrink tubing on it, you won't use this wire.

So with this setup when you turn the switch on you will have power to the pump and the pump will only activate when there is enough water in the bilge for the internal float to activate the pump. When you turn the switch to the off position there will be no power to the bilge pump.
If you want the pump to run without the float switch you can hook the unused white wire to a SPDT switch, personally I think this is superfluous but it's there if you want it.
Rule makes a water resistant SPST switch which is what I used, you can also get either the SPST or SPDT switch at Radio shack.Lou

Thank you Lou, Where did you buy your waterproof switch?

 

[Seadoobuddy]

I found the manual on google: Rule 25s

Rule Fully Automatic Bilge Pumps Manual
FEATURES
Through advanced electronic technology, Rule Automatic Bilge Pumps eliminate the need for a separate switch to activate the pump. Once power is supplied, starting and stopping is completely automatic. The pump checks for water every 2 ½ minutes by running for a second and measuring load against the impeller. If water is present, the pump remains on until the water is removed. Thereafter it resumes its 2 ½ minute check cycle. The pumps feature two positive leads, one which is automatic and one which can manually override the pump and turn it on at any time.
MOUNTING
1. Press strainer base fingers inward and lift pump to remove from strainer.
2. Mount the strainer to your boat with stainless steel screws. On a fiberglass boat you may prefer to bond a wooden block in place and then mount the strainer.
3. To assemble pump to strainer, align the clasps to the strainer fingers and press pump down to snap lock in place.
4. To mount this pump to a transom or a side surface, use Rule Model 66 vertical mounting bracket.
ELECTRICAL
1. Wire-Normal installation requires 16-gauge wire. For installations over 25 feet from battery, use 14-gauge wire.
2. Polarity-Black pump wire connects to negative (-) side of the battery. Brown pump wire connects to the automatic side of the switch. Brown with white stripe wire connects to the manual side of the switch.
3. Fuse-Install recommended size fuse in the positive (+) Brown wire.
MODEL 500 GPH 500 GPH24v 800 GPH 1100 GPH
FUSE SIZE 2.5 1.5 5.0 5.0
WARNING: Pump is not equipped with fuse. Always install the recommended fuse size in the (+) power line. Failure to install proper fuse could result in personal injury and/or fire hazards.
4. KEEP ALL WIRE CONNECTIONS ABOVE HIGHEST POSSIBLE WATER LEVEL. Wire connections should be sealed with Marine Grade Silicone Rubber, Liquid Electrical Tape, or Sudbury Elastomeric Marine Sealant to prevent corrosion.
5. NOTE-When using two wire installation, eliminating the manual override option, the 3rd wire (Brown/White) must be sealed and secured high above the bilge water.
PLUMBING
Bilge Pumps must be plumbed to a thru-hull fitting (see chart) that remains above the water line at all times. On
sailboats, locate the thru-hull fitting high enough on the center of the transom to be above the anticipated water line. To prevent water traps that can cause your pump to airlock the hose must rise continuously from the pump to the thru-hull fitting with no clips where water can collect. Attach the discharge hose to the pump and thru-hull fitting with stainless steel hose clamps.

 

[Seadoobuddy]

more info:

What is the power used by a Rule Computerized Automatic Bilge Pump while in checking mode?
The power used while the pump is in checking mode is minimal. These pumps operate automatically with no need for an external switch, turning on every 2½ minutes for a approximately 1 (one) second. If the bilge contains water, the pump will sense resistance and will continue to run until no water is present. The computer will then reset itself and the cycle will start again.
What are the Amp Hours used per day by the Automatic Bilge pump when checking for water?
800 GPH: 0.25 Amp Hours per Day; 1100 GPH: 0.25 Amp Hours per Day; 1500 GPH: 0.35 Amp Hours per Day; 2000 GPH: 0.60 Amp Hours per Day; 3700 GPH: 0.76 Amp Hours per Day; 4000 GPH: 0.76 Amp Hours per Day; 8000 GPH: 1.52 Amp Hours per Day;

Why does the water drain back into the bilge and re-start my automatic Rule Bilge Pump?
When the Rule automatic submersibles pump stops, the water in the discharge pipe will drain back into the bilge. If the collection space in the bilge is very small the water level may raise enough to re-start the pump again and again, leading eventually to a dead battery. To avoid this problem, make sure that the bilge collection space is large enough to take the drain-back from the discharge pipe without raising the water level enough to restart the pump. Keep the discharge pipe as short as possible. If you can’t avoid the problem, choose a manual pump with a separate switch.

What are the on/off settings of the Automatic Bilge Pumps 25S, 27S and 53S?
The automatic pumps will start pumping only if there is 1-3/4" of water and will pump down to 3/4" (timed based operation)

 

[Seadoobuddy]

[MENTION=31048]LouDoo[/MENTION]

i can't find a Rule SPST waterproof switch would this do? it lights up instead of having the on/off written down on a tab.
http://www.overtons.com/modperl/pro...ch-SPST-OFF-ON-black&i=85585&r=view&from=grid

 

[LouDoo]

Tim, that's the same pump I have, it doesn't have an internal float, it just checks for water every 30 seconds. So the instructions I gave you is exactly how I wired mine.

I think I bought the switch at the same time I bought the pump, and I can't remember exactly where I bought it, maybe Iboats or Amazon. You can get a water resistant switch at Lowes, it's in the lighting department, I bought one there for my boat lift.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_75678-37672...er+resistant+toggle+switch&page=17&facetInfo=

Lou

 

[LouDoo]

[MENTION=31048]LouDoo[/MENTION]

i can't find a Rule SPST waterproof switch would this do? it lights up instead of having the on/off written down on a tab.
http://www.overtons.com/modperl/pro...ch-SPST-OFF-ON-black&i=85585&r=view&from=grid

That will work, except I don't know where or how you're going to mount it.

Lou

Added: I believe this is the one I used, different face plate.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...&subdeptNum=50633&classNum=50635#.UwgPg4Wb-i0

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

To each his own of course and I'm sure whatever you choose will work to expectation, however, consider the option of the three position switch setup in the autobilge link above, b/c this allows you to test the pump manually. If you only wire the auto function operation then you have to fill the bilge to see if the pump motor is working and it removes the option of a quick test. Of course nothing is absolutely fail-safe so I try to idiot-proof as much as possible, thus I wire the auto function directly to power without a switch and then wire the manual function switched, that way the pump can't be left in the off position accidentally LOL!

 

[LouDoo]

With the self sensing pump it will run about every 30 seconds on it's own, and on a ski you have a small battery, so that's why the on/off switch on the self sensing side. You are correct a spdt switch is not a bad idea, but I feel it's not necessary on this setup. When I leave my skis in the water for any length of time, like over night or sometimes days at a time, I will connect a battery tender to shore power and leave the switch on, I'll turn the switch off when on the trailer.

Lou

 

[Coastiejoe]

Pumps that turn on every 30 seconds or so have pros and cons. And,,, in this case they are exactly they same. The fact it operates every 30 seconds helps to keep water out of the hull. and again, the fact that it turns on every 30 seconds can easily drain a battery if things a not hooked up properly.

For me, I would want a 30 second cycle type pump as I may dock my skis and go get a diner and I want o KNOW I will have both a good battery and my ski when I return. I will be installing a pump with a three way on/off/float switch.

This will give me all I want and need.

Nothing wrong with a self cycling pump, just not my preference is all.

 

[Seadoobuddy]

After reading these wonderful suggestions last night, it got me to thinking.
Maybe I mis-understood Brad, but if it's self sensing type pump, then why is it running as soon as the connector is connected?
Is the pump faulty or is the wiring set up not correct. Yes, i know Brad said a wire may be "broken" somewhere in the harness.
I believe that the Seadoo owners manual said that it runs/senses only when the motor is on. So even on the trailer it doesn't "turn on" to sense water.
Remember this replaced an OEM bilge pump with no on/off switch

Other than that i do like the 3-way switch.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

With the self sensing pump it will run about every 30 seconds on it's own, and on a ski you have a small battery, so that's why the on/off switch on the self sensing side.Lou

You are absolutely correct in this regard, if left unswitched (unable to disable!) a 30sec on cycle sense type pump will run the battery down over a (perhaps short) period of time dependent on battery capacity. This is why I don't use this type of pump, my customers wouldn't be happy to find their battery dead upon return to their boat with plans to be on the lake for the weekend also my loaner jump packs nor would I, be happy either. I suppose for some, the autosense 30second cycle pump is preferable and I will install them if that's specifically what the customer wants but in general, I avoid them if possible b/c it's already tough enough to get them to turn off their switched bilge blowers and nav lights. Guess who checks their engine oil for them? Well, I do, otherwise it simply wouldn't happen!

Edit: Seriously, I get people bringing their boats back after-hours and just tying them to the dock and taking off to go home for the week, knowing I'll pull their boat out for them and put it in the warehouse. Of course this means occasionally I arrive in the morning to find a half-sunk $90k boat, and I may not even notice for a couple days if he's tied up way down on the other end of the marina, unbelievable perhaps but true....

 

[Seadoobuddy]

I bought this switch ($5.99) and waterproof boot, along with a new winch strap, docking lines and a trailer fender to replace my broken one.

FREE SHIPPING to all, no minimums needed, no coupon needed either.

http://www.overtons.com/search/84899

 

[Seadoobuddy]

You are absolutely correct in this regard, if left un-switched (unable to disable!) a 30sec on cycle sense type pump will run the battery down over a (perhaps short) period of time dependent on battery capacity. This is why I don't use this type of pump, my customers wouldn't be happy to find their battery dead upon return to their boat with plans to be on the lake for the weekend also my loaner jump packs nor would I, be happy either. I suppose for some, the autosense 30second cycle pump is preferable and I will install them if that's specifically what the customer wants but in general, I avoid them if possible b/c it's already tough enough to get them to turn off their switched bilge blowers and nav lights. Guess who checks their engine oil for them? Well, I do, otherwise it simply wouldn't happen!

Edit: Seriously, I get people bringing their boats back after-hours and just tying them to the dock and taking off to go home for the week, knowing I'll pull their boat out for them and put it in the warehouse. Of course this means occasionally I arrive in the morning to find a half-sunk $90k boat, and I may not even notice for a couple days if he's tied up way down on the other end of the marina, unbelievable perhaps but true....

So you are saying if the ski is on the trailer for a week, the pump will still search for water and wear down the battery.