Are there any 951 DI engine experts on here?

[russellb]

I have a 2002 GTX DI. It has never ran since I got it. I have had a remanufactured engine put in and the mechanic has tried 3 different MPEM's if you count the original MPEM. Kind of makes me think that the MPEM is not the issue. This repair has been ongoing for quite some time. I'd really like to get this SeaDoo going soon. I'd welcome any advice that could be given. The engine turns over but will not start.

 

[racerxxx]

[MENTION=57696]68ragtop[/MENTION] had meticulously gone thru a few di's so hopefully he can chime in here. Have you or the mechanic verified the fuel pump is energizing? Had the fuel pressure been verified? If you put a little pre mix down the spark plug holes will it fire? Are you getting spark? Stick with it, the forum will get you going.

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[68ragtop]

The DI engines are a pretty cool setup when working, but sure can make people crazy when they are not. It can also be difficult to diagnose through the forum, but I think it can be done. The biggest thing would be to give us as much information as you have & as you progress with testing as well. Don't leave anything out & don't skip over things because you think they are ok, or if it doesn't seem important. Fuel & air pressures are the single most troublesome thing with these engines & are easily misunderstood. While the engines will start with too low of air pressure, they will not start if the fuel pressure is not 27-ish psi higher than the air pressure . we can get into that later though if needed.

Starting out, do you get two beeps when you install the key & do any errors display on the info center at any point? "MAINT" message?

If all that seems ok, do what racer suggests & squirt a little fuel into the cylinders & see if it will run for a moment or two. that will help with what direction to go from here.

Game on!

 

[Waterluvr]

If there's any question about the MPEM's you're dealing with, I can bench test those for you and post screenshots of every piece of data in them to the thread to help everyone along. The original MPEM would be especially helpful to see what was active and stored for fault codes.

Racer and Ragtop gave you really good advice to that end, if you're getting two beeps and the motor cranks and fires the plugs you're probably good to go there, I'd put the original MPEM back in and start from there with the suggestions you've already gotten if it will burn a little 40:1 premix introduced via the intake you can safely rule out a faulty MPEM with the caveat that some ongoing diagnostic's will be needed to get everything dialed back in properly if your TPS has been removed for any reason.

 

[russellb]

[MENTION=57696]68ragtop[/MENTION] had meticulously gone thru a few di's so hopefully he can chime in here. Have you or the mechanic verified the fuel pump is energizing? Had the fuel pressure been verified? If you put a little pre mix down the spark plug holes will it fire? Are you getting spark? Stick with it, the forum will get you going.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

The mechanic said that with the original MPEM that it would turn over but it wasn't getting spark. For some reason when he put the MPEM that I bought in it would no longer do anything. Then he put the original one in and it still would not do anything. He said that he is going to check all of the wiring that there may be a ground somewhere.

 

[russellb]

The DI engines are a pretty cool setup when working, but sure can make people crazy when they are not. It can also be difficult to diagnose through the forum, but I think it can be done. The biggest thing would be to give us as much information as you have & as you progress with testing as well. Don't leave anything out & don't skip over things because you think they are ok, or if it doesn't seem important. Fuel & air pressures are the single most troublesome thing with these engines & are easily misunderstood. While the engines will start with too low of air pressure, they will not start if the fuel pressure is not 27-ish psi higher than the air pressure . we can get into that later though if needed.

Starting out, do you get two beeps when you install the key & do any errors display on the info center at any point? "MAINT" message?

If all that seems ok, do what racer suggests & squirt a little fuel into the cylinders & see if it will run for a moment or two. that will help with what direction to go from here.

Game on!

At this time the mechanic is saying that the ski is not responding to the MPEM at all. Does anyone sell an aftermarket wiring harness? I'm starting to think the easiest thing to do might be to replace all of the wiring.

 

[russellb]

If there's any question about the MPEM's you're dealing with, I can bench test those for you and post screenshots of every piece of data in them to the thread to help everyone along. The original MPEM would be especially helpful to see what was active and stored for fault codes.

Racer and Ragtop gave you really good advice to that end, if you're getting two beeps and the motor cranks and fires the plugs you're probably good to go there, I'd put the original MPEM back in and start from there with the suggestions you've already gotten if it will burn a little 40:1 premix introduced via the intake you can safely rule out a faulty MPEM with the caveat that some ongoing diagnostic's will be needed to get everything dialed back in properly if your TPS has been removed for any reason.

I wish I had known about your MPEM testing and diagnostic service before I bought another MPEM. I am very interested in having one or both of the MPEM's tested. Would you please give me the details on how I can get the MPEM to you and what the cost would be? Once you test an MPEM if you find a problem is there any way that an MPEM can be repaired?

 

[Waterluvr]

I wish I had known about your MPEM testing and diagnostic service before I bought another MPEM. I am very interested in having one or both of the MPEM's tested. Would you please give me the details on how I can get the MPEM to you and what the cost would be? Once you test an MPEM if you find a problem is there any way that an MPEM can be repaired?

They can be repaired in some cases, I simply do not have the time to open them up and chase defects for hours on end and I don't condone it as a business practice while time is ticking away on a work order for a *maybe*. Bottom line I don't believe any service provider is entitled to a penny for repairs they are unable to complete effectively and used em's that are tested and shown in good faith to be working properly are a better option if the price is right.

I do get into them in the off season when I acquire them as my own and generally speaking I'm into them for at least 4-5 hours for something minor like getting access to a potted diode for replacement.

Hang in there we'll get you sorted out, sounds like you have spent an inordinate amount of time and money already with nothing to show for it I'll bench test those free of charge for you just pay return shipping if we need to go that route.

Let's first make sure something simple isn't being overlooked. From your response to Racer it sounds like the original MPEM was at least powering up ok and communicating via the DESS post and key, what happens with the other two without the lanyard on the DESS post you should be able to just press start and power up the gauges for the duration of the 33 second accessory cutoff.

What happens with either of the two replacement MPEM's when the DESS lanyard is pressed on, are you getting the two beeps to indicate the ski is ready to start or just a single beep or none at all?

If not, need to verify the MPEM is getting power from the 30 amp fused circuit in the rear e-box and test the DESS post and wiring. Did you receive programmed lanyards with the replacement MPEM's or is that an unknown variable at this point?

Also, may I suggest you verify your current mechanic has BRP's Buds, Candoo Pro or Sierra Marine STATS in the shop? If they are replacing the engine on a DI ski and do not possess one of those three diagnostic / programming tools they simply have bitten off a problem they will never be able to remedy from this point on without it and the knowledge to use it properly.

You will need to have the ski in the hands of someone with proper diagnostic ability to get that new engine running and check and set the timing, TPS etc. Anyone with that ability should also be able to bench test the MPEM's right on the spot as well. I'll post the bench test connections to your specific MPEM for reference.

Power:
+ 3-24
- 3-25

DESS:
WHT-GRY 2-15
BLK-YELL 2-23
BLK 2-12

Communication Port by Deutsch pin location:
5 PU 1-12
2 GR-BK 1-2
1 GR-WH 1-6
3 BLK 1-9

 

[russellb]

I wish I had known about your MPEM testing and diagnostic service before I bought another MPEM. I am very interested in having one or both of the MPEM's tested. Would you please give me the details on how I can get the MPEM to you and what the cost would be? Once you test an MPEM if you find a problem is there any way that an MPEM can be repaired?

As of right now the mechanic is saying the ski is not powering up at all with either MPEM. He thinks there could be a ground. The used MPEM that I bought was purchased from a reliable seller on eBay that routinely deals in SeaDoo parts with practically 100% buyer approval rating. I would not think a seller who cared about his reputation would sell a bad part. The new MPEM came with 2 keys and I have one for the old one. I'll have to talk to the mechanic about the more specific questions. Thanks for the help.

 

[68ragtop]

As of right now the mechanic is saying the ski is not powering up at all with either MPEM. He thinks there could be a ground. The used MPEM that I bought was purchased from a reliable seller on eBay that routinely deals in SeaDoo parts with practically 100% buyer approval rating. I would not think a seller who cared about his reputation would sell a bad part. The new MPEM came with 2 keys and I have one for the old one. I'll have to talk to the mechanic about the more specific questions. Thanks for the help.

You said the engine was replaced. Did the ski power up before it was removed? If so, I would be suspect the wiring, or connections. There is a ground wire that was originally located to the right side of the PTO reed valve (rear of the boat) is that connected. There are a lot of things to connect when installing a DI engine, not to hard for somebody to miss something.


It shouldn't be that hard to figure out electrical wise. There area diagrams that show all the common grounds in the mpem. Should be able to verify that with a meter. A bad DESS post will also prevent a power up, & that can be tested with a meter. We had somebody last summer with a bad one that was not powering up. Not super common, but for sure not uncommon.

 

[68ragtop]

Here's were the ground wire was original attached on the 2002 GTX. Could have been relocated during install, but an easy thing to check.

If the ski is going to stay at the shop, its probably going to be difficult to trouble shoot this way. You really need the ski near your computer & your tools.

 

[russellb]

You said the engine was replaced. Did the ski power up before it was removed? If so, I would be suspect the wiring, or connections. There is a ground wire that was originally located to the right side of the PTO reed valve (rear of the boat) is that connected. There are a lot of things to connect when installing a DI engine, not to hard for somebody to miss something.


It shouldn't be that hard to figure out electrical wise. There area diagrams that show all the common grounds in the mpem. Should be able to verify that with a meter. A bad DESS post will also prevent a power up, & that can be tested with a meter. We had somebody last summer with a bad one that was not powering up. Not super common, but for sure not uncommon.

With the old engine the ski would get power. The starter would try to turn the engine over but it wouldn't turn over. It just made a clicking sound because it was locked up.

 

[russellb]

Here's were the ground wire was original attached on the 2002 GTX. Could have been relocated during install, but an easy thing to check.

If the ski is going to stay at the shop, its probably going to be difficult to trouble shoot this way. You really need the ski near your computer & your tools.

I'm going to give the guy a few more days but I really need to see some progress soon. I seem to always learn my lessons the hard way.

 

[russellb]

Currently the ski will not "flash" the dash with or without the ski. I don't really have time to work on the ski myself. I'm working 40 hours or more a week and taking classes on my GI Bill. Although I probaly could have figured it out in 9 months. Apparently before you leave your 951 DI ski with someone for repairs you really need to come right and ask them specifically "Do you have experience working on DI engines?" If they say no immediately take your ski somewhere else. If any of you know of a shop that excels at working on the DI engines within a hundred miles or so of Chesapeake, VA I'd love to hear about them.

 

[russellb]

So if you know that your battery is charged and your ground is clean where should you look next for the problem when you can't get any power to the dash?

 

[russellb]

Is there an OEM or aftermarket wiring harness available for the GTX DI? Do any of you know of a good salvage yard for SeaDoo's? Surely one exists somewhere.

 

[racerxxx]

Contact [MENTION=41828]Minnetonka4me[/MENTION] he's got used parts. I think you personally need to do a little digging before you start throwing more parts at it. Or are you just doing exploratory work on the wiring costs.

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[68ragtop]

I think you personally need to do a little digging before you start throwing more parts at it. Or are you just doing exploratory work on the wiring costs.

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I totally agree, if you have a decent multimeter & the willingness to go through it, it can figured out. But, we don't want to talk you into something your not comfortable with either.
In the meantime, Lets see if we can come up with a plan to start out with................

 

[russellb]

I'm just wondering how difficult it is to find the parts. I'm probably not going to give the guy who has my ski much more time. I'm not that sure he has any urgency to get it out of his shop even though he's had it for a very long time.

Contact [MENTION=41828]Minnetonka4me[/MENTION] he's got used parts. I think you personally need to do a little digging before you start throwing more parts at it. Or are you just doing exploratory work on the wiring costs.

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[russellb]

I'm just looking to get it done as soon as I can now. There is another mechanic in the area who claims to have experience with the DI engines. I may have to go that route. I'll definitely have more money in this ski than it will be worth in the end.

I totally agree, if you have a decent multimeter & the willingness to go through it, it can figured out. But, we don't want to talk you into something your not comfortable with either.
In the meantime, Lets see if we can come up with a plan to start out with................

 

[68ragtop]

IMO the fact that it won't power up brings this back to the basics of these ski's, not so much thats its a DI. Where the DI's get specific is diagnosing the trouble faults, & air/fuel injection problems. Other than that, they still operate like the rest of them. The fact that it won't power up really shouldn't be that hard to pin down. There is a plug that provides the main power & ground to the MPEM through a 30A fuse in the rear Ebox. from there it goes into the MPEM & is disbursed though multiple fuses directly on the module. on the 2002, the power is there all the time & should be easy to check with a meter, but you need the ski in front of you & a meter. The MPEM is powered up from the DESS post & key. If there is good power & ground, there a good chance the DESS post is bad. Heck, if you can find another shop to diagnose it & they are not to proud to jump on the forum, have them join this thread & we will have this thing figured out.

On a side note, I am trying to remember if the 2000-2002 DI's will power up for 30 seconds from hitting the start/stop switch. MY skis are all still in storage, or I could give you some better & very specific info. I have been through a few skis in the past couple years, so off the top of my head I don't recall what ones have that feature. I know the 2003's & up do not has they have a power cutoff relay controlled from an extra reed switch in the DESS post. 2002 does not have that feature.

While I hate to make assumptions, I would like to believe your current mechanic has properly tested that there is power to the MPEM & all the fuses are good, so good chance its a deeper issue, but again, no power up shouldn't be hard to figure out.

I am thinking the guys here that program keys can confirm if more connections are needed to power up these up besides #24 & #25, but I don't think there is. But again, to try & trouble shoot this without somebody being able to test the suggestions is going to be nearly impossible.

What's your comfort level? Are you a hands on guy, or do you prefer to have a shop do the work? For sure no harm either way, It's always hard to know what somebody is comfortable with, & we sure don't want to talk somebody into doing something that makes them uncomfortable.

I enlarged this diagram so you should be able to open it & zoom in pan/scan & see what is what for connections.
I also circled the DESS connections that are responsible for power up the module if there is power to it. There is a thread from last year where a member had a bad post & no power up. in that thread, there was mention of the correct way to test the post. I will see if I can find it & add it here. This is not everything, but its a place to start.

 

[68ragtop]

Doing some searching for another thread & realized you have two threads going on the same ski? Is this the same mechanic that has had the ski for the last 6 months?? I remember this thread form last fall: http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?74360-2002-gtx-di-ecu

I just never put 2/2 together.....

Here is some regurgitated info on testing the DESS post. If even if the magnetic reed switch tests good in the DESS post, but it doesn't read the key, it will not power up. Has to see both thing happen together. Not saying this is your issue either, but it needs to be tested.

Safety lanyard removed;
connect the test probes to switch Black and Black/Yellow wires. It’s an open circuit, there should be no continuity.
Connect one test probe to the White/Gray wire and the other test probe to the switch terminal. Measure resistance, it should be “0” ohm. Connect one test probe to the Black wire and the other test probe to the switch ring. Measure resistance, it must be close to “0” ohm.
Safety lanyard on switch; connect the probes to switch Black and Black /Yellow wires. Measure resistance, it must be “0” ohm.

 

[russellb]

Thanks again for the help. It does sound like a very good place to start looking.

IMO the fact that it won't power up brings this back to the basics of these ski's, not so much thats its a DI. Where the DI's get specific is diagnosing the trouble faults, & air/fuel injection problems. Other than that, they still operate like the rest of them. The fact that it won't power up really shouldn't be that hard to pin down. There is a plug that provides the main power & ground to the MPEM through a 30A fuse in the rear Ebox. from there it goes into the MPEM & is disbursed though multiple fuses directly on the module. on the 2002, the power is there all the time & should be easy to check with a meter, but you need the ski in front of you & a meter. The MPEM is powered up from the DESS post & key. If there is good power & ground, there a good chance the DESS post is bad. Heck, if you can find another shop to diagnose it & they are not to proud to jump on the forum, have them join this thread & we will have this thing figured out.

On a side note, I am trying to remember if the 2000-2002 DI's will power up for 30 seconds from hitting the start/stop switch. MY skis are all still in storage, or I could give you some better & very specific info. I have been through a few skis in the past couple years, so off the top of my head I don't recall what ones have that feature. I know the 2003's & up do not has they have a power cutoff relay controlled from an extra reed switch in the DESS post. 2002 does not have that feature.

While I hate to make assumptions, I would like to believe your current mechanic has properly tested that there is power to the MPEM & all the fuses are good, so good chance its a deeper issue, but again, no power up shouldn't be hard to figure out.

I am thinking the guys here that program keys can confirm if more connections are needed to power up these up besides #24 & #25, but I don't think there is. But again, to try & trouble shoot this without somebody being able to test the suggestions is going to be nearly impossible.

What's your comfort level? Are you a hands on guy, or do you prefer to have a shop do the work? For sure no harm either way, It's always hard to know what somebody is comfortable with, & we sure don't want to talk somebody into doing something that makes them uncomfortable.

I enlarged this diagram so you should be able to open it & zoom in pan/scan & see what is what for connections.
I also circled the DESS connections that are responsible for power up the module if there is power to it. There is a thread from last year where a member had a bad post & no power up. in that thread, there was mention of the correct way to test the post. I will see if I can find it & add it here. This is not everything, but its a place to start.

 

[russellb]

I did have another thread on the ski. The story is even worse than you think though. I actually took the ski to the mechanic in June of 2014. He originally told me he thought he would have it out of the shop before July 4th (surely never thought he meant 2015). I'm thinking of retrieving my ski by the end of next week if the guy has shown no progress. I probably could have saved money by taking it to someone else from the beginning but there is no way that I could have known how things would pan out at that time. To say the least this has been very frustrating. If there is someone reasonably close to me who has a shop and reads this I'd certainly consider giving them a chance to help me out and take my business to them. If necessary I will try to do the repairs myself but I'd prefer to have a skilled mechanic look it over. I certainly don't want to spend so much money and then overlook something that leaves my ski at the bottom of the river. If the candoo tool cost me $400 and it cost me about the same to have someone do the work I'd prefer just to let someone who already has the skills to do the work. It is getting warm enough here that I'd probably try to ride if it was running.

Doing some searching for another thread & realized you have two threads going on the same ski? Is this the same mechanic that has had the ski for the last 6 months?? I remember this thread form last fall: http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?74360-2002-gtx-di-ecu

I just never put 2/2 together.....

Here is some regurgitated info on testing the DESS post. If even if the magnetic reed switch tests good in the DESS post, but it doesn't read the key, it will not power up. Has to see both thing happen together. Not saying this is your issue either, but it needs to be tested.

Safety lanyard removed;
connect the test probes to switch Black and Black/Yellow wires. It’s an open circuit, there should be no continuity.
Connect one test probe to the White/Gray wire and the other test probe to the switch terminal. Measure resistance, it should be “0” ohm. Connect one test probe to the Black wire and the other test probe to the switch ring. Measure resistance, it must be close to “0” ohm.
Safety lanyard on switch; connect the probes to switch Black and Black /Yellow wires. Measure resistance, it must be “0” ohm.

 

[russellb]

Update: Mechanic who has my GTX DI says that it is now doing everything it should do except that the plugs are not getting any fire. Says it turns over, gets fuel, coils tested and are good. Just not getting spark at the plugs. I'd love to hear if there is anything that is known to be a cause of this symptom I'd love to hear about it. Any help is greatly appreciated.