'99 GTX Won't Crank

[Captain RonJon]

Hey Gents! So I bought a '99 GTX from a guy who said it ran fine all summer and then on his last run of the season, it stalled out and he couldn't restart it. He took it home where it sat for a number of months. According to the meter its only got 104 hours on it. I had picked it up for $500 with trailer. Brought it home, hooked up my fresh Deka battery and...

1) put the key in and get the appropriate beeps
2) press start and starter thunks normally BUT
3) engine won't turn - I think I see the shaft rotating maybe an 1/8" with each turn
4) so is it a seized engine or frozen jet pump? something else?

Where should I start to diagnose this issue?

Any and all help is much appreciated - I will be down at Lake Norman in NC in July so would like to get this all sorted out before then.

Thanks guys!
Mike

 

[Coastiejoe]

Pull the spark plugs. You may have a bad crank seal. If so, it allows oil to fill the cylinders and will lock the engine up. Put a towel over the spark plug holes and try to crank it again.

Let us know what happens.....

 

[racerxxx]

Like Coastie said, pop the plugs. I'd also try and spin it by hand. I hope your Toms River ski turns out better than the one I just got, LOL

Also a pump tunnel full of debris

 

[Seadoobuddy]

Dan , you need to make a thread about this rebuild. Ice in the hull with the battery still there. Hope you got it El cheapo....sorry for the quick hijack.

 

[racerxxx]

Dan , you need to make a thread about this rebuild. Ice in the hull with the battery still there. Hope you got it El cheapo....sorry for the quick hijack.

Where you been, Florida? LOL


http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?76155-1998-Seadoo-SPX-Resto-Project

 

[Captain RonJon]

Like Coastie said, pop the plugs. I'd also try and spin it by hand. I hope your Toms River ski turns out better than the one I just got, LOL

Holy cow, that's crazy! You certainly have your hands full with that one - true labor of love. However, my situation just escalated - I think my son accidentally threw out the Dess key with the trash! As recommended I went to pull the plugs and give it a crank but I couldn't find the key which I had put on a shelf, unfortunately it was right over the recycling bin which is now gone! Ugggh! Can I proceed for now by jumping the starter? Or I guess I can try and crank by hand.

 

[Coastiejoe]

You can jump the solenoid to crank the engine. If you need a key, pull the MPEM and send it to [MENTION=41828]Minnetonka4me[/MENTION]. He has the keys and can program it for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Captain RonJon]

You can jump the solenoid to crank the engine. If you need a key, pull the MPEM and send it to [MENTION=41828]Minnetonka4me[/MENTION]. He has the keys and can program it for you.

Got it - I will give this a try when I'm home later. Thanks for the info on the key. I can't believe it's missing - I will launch a massive search to find it later but if I come up empty, this is a good option for replacement, thanks!

 

[Minnetonka4me]

Yup I can take care of it just let me know.

 

[Captain RonJon]

Ok so good news is I found the DESS key - bad news is now all I get is a click from the solenoid but no starter engagement. So here's the revised issue:

1) attach DESS key, get 2 quick beeps
2) press start and just a "click" from the solenoid - I know the battery is good.
3) when I attempt to jump the solenoid, absolutely nothing happens; no noise, no sparks, nothing.

Anyone?

 

[1983]

Have you pulled spark plugs yet?
Have you tried to turn engine by hand?
How are you jumping solenoid?
Let's get back to the battery. You said it is fresh. Has it been on battery maintainer like a trickle charger or float charger to maintain it's charge? How old is it? Just because a battery has 12 volts or more static doesn't mean anything about it's cranking amps level.
Do you have digital volt/ohm meter "DVOM"? Can you perform resistance test to all ground points and verify good connection at them? We can explain in further details if that is something you haven't ever done. It's ez



Rob

 

[racerxxx]

God gave you two of the finest tools in the world, use your hands to find out if the engine is stuffed or not. Messing with the electronics right now is kinda worthless if the engine is stuffed. Pull the PTO cover, pull the spark plugs and twist the PTO. I'll wait for the results....................

 

[Captain RonJon]

Have you pulled spark plugs yet?
Have you tried to turn engine by hand?
How are you jumping solenoid?
Let's get back to the battery. You said it is fresh. Has it been on battery maintainer like a trickle charger or float charger to maintain it's charge? How old is it? Just because a battery has 12 volts or more static doesn't mean anything about it's cranking amps level.
Do you have digital volt/ohm meter "DVOM"? Can you perform resistance test to all ground points and verify good connection at them? We can explain in further details if that is something you haven't ever done. It's ez

Wow, that's a lot of info - I'm brand new to this game so I don't know much yet. But let me try and answer some of these.
The battery is a brand new Deka AGM; in fact, I bought 2 of them about 3 months ago. They have been constantly connected to an automatic diagnostic digital charger I bought called Optimate 4.

I tried jumping the starter relay/solenoid by jumping the 2 terminals together where they both connect; that is, one coming in from the battery and one going out. I jumped it by touching the ends of a pair of needle nosed pliers to each terminal. I also tried a 10 gauge piece of copper wire.

I pulled the plugs and tried turning the PTO by hand; there's a little wiggle and clunking in either direction but I cannot turn it. However, I'm wondering if the starter is stuck in the flywheel. Before today, I could get a nice crisp thunk as the starter would engage but now I don't, just the clicking. This is originally what led me to the question of whether the engine is seized, or jet pump frozen or as Coastie mentioned possibly a bad crank seal with oil getting in and locking it up. But now I can't test any theory because the starter might be stuck or perhaps just shot as I all I get is the click at the relay.

I do not have a voly/ohm meter. Is that the same as a multimeter? In any case I don't have one...YET. Any suggestions for which to get would be appreciated as it seems a requisite piece of equipment I should have.

Even if I had one though, admittedly I don't know how to use it, so, no, I would not know how to check resistance at ground points or the battery 'strength' under load.

I'm open to any and all suggestions. Would like to just try and rule out that engine is not seized.

Thanks!

 

[Captain RonJon]

God gave you two of the finest tools in the world, use your hands to find out if the engine is stuffed or not. Messing with the electronics right now is kinda worthless if the engine is stuffed. Pull the PTO cover, pull the spark plugs and twist the PTO. I'll wait for the results....................

Ahh, I had just included this I my answer above. I pulled the plugs and tried to turn the PTO. I get a little wiggle back and forth and some clunking noise but I cannot spin it. If the jet pump were seized would I be able to spin it? Or if the starter were stuck engaged, would I be able to spin it? Not sure, but I think the starter might be stuck.

 

[racerxxx]

You're down to pulling the pump, but I would venture to say 99% of the time that is not it. It's either locked or the starter is stuck in. This is the 787 RFI right? You can pop the starter out, not easily with the pipe over it though. and then try again. But you're in the right direction. I never hook a battery until I try by hand first. No sense in that extra labor. There are 3 bolts that hold the starter on.

 

[Captain RonJon]

You're down to pulling the pump, but I would venture to say 99% of the time that is not it. It's either locked or the starter is stuck in. This is the 787 RFI right? You can pop the starter out, not easily with the pipe over it though. and then try again. But you're in the right direction. I never hook a battery until I try by hand first. No sense in that extra labor. There are 3 bolts that hold the starter on.

Correct, it's a 787 RFI. I will try and pull the starter tomorrow and like you said, I think I have to take off the flame arrestor and exhaust manifold/pipe as I cannot see a way to really get near the starter with it on. Good practice I suppose anyway! Will report back with what I find. Thanks for the info!

 

[racerxxx]

#19 and 23 are what you need to remove, plus the cables, but those are obvious. The top starter screw probably has a nut on the back side that has to come off first. Then #23 is kinda under the engine, a mirror is your best friend until you get "the feel"

 

[Captain RonJon]

#19 and 23 are what you need to remove, plus the cables, but those are obvious. The top starter screw probably has a nut on the back side that has to come off first. Then #23 is kinda under the engine, a mirror is your best friend until you get "the feel"

This is great, thanks for the info, will post back once I have it off.

 

[Captain RonJon]

#19 and 23 are what you need to remove, plus the cables, but those are obvious. The top starter screw probably has a nut on the back side that has to come off first. Then #23 is kinda under the engine, a mirror is your best friend until you get "the feel"

Ok, so I uncovered a path to the starter. But before removing it, I gave it a light wrap with a hammer while holding the start button. Low and behold it released and started thunking again. However, it is still not turning the engine. See the video below for what it's doing. An item of note perhaps, and I'm not sure if this is meaningful but the negative cable from the battery to the engine got really really hot. So I haven't removed the starter yet and I will await further thoughts. Thank you gents!

[youtube]Ky6Nr_JJLmM[/youtube]

 

[1983]

Ok, so battery is confirmed good. Check-

Starter relay jump, engine still not spinning. Check-

Pulling plugs, engine will not rotate by hand, yes starter could be stuck in flywheel especially if its a bit tired, and engine is locked up causing starter to constantly try and spin engine to avail. ( possible internal engine problem and it is never going to spin with starter )

Yes DVOM same as multimeter, I just know that some members might use an old analog type they have laying around. You need a digital one. I keep a couple of the free harbor freight ones in my tow rig for at lake diag if needed. They are free so if you smash it or drop it, oh well back to HF for more free stuff ha.

The first tests i like to do are not under load, and not connected to battery or engine ground point. You will isolate the wire itself from the ski, and put one lead of meter on one end of wire, and other lead of meter on other end of wire and measure resistance ( ohms ) should be low number, if high it has resistance possibly from water ingress/corrosion and your full load of power cannot reach ground , same for positive battery cable.


I read through your findings today and video, yes negative cable getting hot is a sign starter is attempting to crank engine but since engine is locked up ( or jet drive, or other issue with drive-line ) it cannot turn it. Hott cable also could be high resistance but I doubt you have that issue with your wiring.
Something is keeping engine from spinning. Lets get that starter off the engine, then try spinning engine by hand with plugs out, rags of spark plug holes so you don't take a oil shower :lol:




Rob

Wow, that's a lot of info - I'm brand new to this game so I don't know much yet. But let me try and answer some of these.
The battery is a brand new Deka AGM; in fact, I bought 2 of them about 3 months ago. They have been constantly connected to an automatic diagnostic digital charger I bought called Optimate 4.

I tried jumping the starter relay/solenoid by jumping the 2 terminals together where they both connect; that is, one coming in from the battery and one going out. I jumped it by touching the ends of a pair of needle nosed pliers to each terminal. I also tried a 10 gauge piece of copper wire.

I pulled the plugs and tried turning the PTO by hand; there's a little wiggle and clunking in either direction but I cannot turn it. However, I'm wondering if the starter is stuck in the flywheel. Before today, I could get a nice crisp thunk as the starter would engage but now I don't, just the clicking. This is originally what led me to the question of whether the engine is seized, or jet pump frozen or as Coastie mentioned possibly a bad crank seal with oil getting in and locking it up. But now I can't test any theory because the starter might be stuck or perhaps just shot as I all I get is the click at the relay.

I do not have a voly/ohm meter. Is that the same as a multimeter? In any case I don't have one...YET. Any suggestions for which to get would be appreciated as it seems a requisite piece of equipment I should have.

Even if I had one though, admittedly I don't know how to use it, so, no, I would not know how to check resistance at ground points or the battery 'strength' under load.

I'm open to any and all suggestions. Would like to just try and rule out that engine is not seized.

Thanks!

 

[Captain RonJon]

Ok, so battery is confirmed good. Check-

Starter relay jump, engine still not spinning. Check-

Pulling plugs, engine will not rotate by hand, yes starter could be stuck in flywheel especially if its a bit tired, and engine is locked up causing starter to constantly try and spin engine to avail. ( possible internal engine problem and it is never going to spin with starter )

Yes DVOM same as multimeter, I just know that some members might use an old analog type they have laying around. You need a digital one. I keep a couple of the free harbor freight ones in my tow rig for at lake diag if needed. They are free so if you smash it or drop it, oh well back to HF for more free stuff ha.

The first tests i like to do are not under load, and not connected to battery or engine ground point. You will isolate the wire itself from the ski, and put one lead of meter on one end of wire, and other lead of meter on other end of wire and measure resistance ( ohms ) should be low number, if high it has resistance possibly from water ingress/corrosion and your full load of power cannot reach ground , same for positive battery cable.


I read through your findings today and video, yes negative cable getting hot is a sign starter is attempting to crank engine but since engine is locked up ( or jet drive, or other issue with drive-line ) it cannot turn it. Hott cable also could be high resistance but I doubt you have that issue with your wiring.
Something is keeping engine from spinning. Lets get that starter off the engine, then try spinning engine by hand with plugs out, rags of spark plug holes so you don't take a oil shower :lol:Rob

Wow, ok so I got the starter off and learned a lot about my knuckles today! So with starter off, I tried spinning the engine by hand with the plugs out but no dice. The PTO wiggles back and forth and I do hear some metallic/mechanical noise at both ends of the wiggle but I cannot rotate it. Is it possible that the engine is not seized but something inside has failed keeping it from turning?

What should I do next? Thanks in advance for any continued assistance!

Oh, also, I assume I should go ahead and rebuild the starter since it was sticky and as long as it's off? I had read somewhere in these threads that it's only wise to rebuild an OEM starter. I also read you can tell an OEM starter because it will be inscribed with "ND" on the bendix which this one is. Are my assumptions accurate?

 

[racerxxx]

Correct on the starter being oem. What I would do next is pull the rave valves off the cylinders and looking in the cylinder wall. The pto one is easy, the front one will need to be completely disassembled. Watch the spring under the black caps, like the ole snake in the peanut container trick.Or pull the pump, but I'm betting on the engine, but praying it's the pump.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

 

[Mike99]

Your pump could be seized, as well. Did you look into the intake grate and lookfor the rope the PO sucked up on his "last run of the season." . Since you have ruled out the starter motor, pull the pump to see if it is he engine or he pump. Let's hope it is the pump. Don't mess with the starter rebuild until you know the whole story.

Mike

 

[Captain RonJon]

Correct on the starter being oem. What I would do next is pull the rave valves off the cylinders and looking in the cylinder wall. The pto one is easy, the front one will need to be completely disassembled. Watch the spring under the black caps, like the ole snake in the peanut container trick.Or pull the pump, but I'm betting on the engine, but praying it's the pump.

Ok, so here are 2 quick videos looking through the exhaust ports on each cylinder. As I mentioned previously, I am able to slightly wiggle the PTO back and forth. The video shows the pistons moving up and down slightly with each wiggle. I guess the questions is - does this tell us anything new? First video is the rear most cylinder, piston at or near bottom of cycle and video two is the front cylinder, piston near the top.

[youtube]bv4hD1OcTxo[/youtube]

[youtube]f5DcLd09Z8U[/youtube]

 

[Coastiejoe]

PUMP PUMP PUMP,,,

Until you KNOW the bearing are not seized, you are just spinning your wheels.

Buy a brush kit for the starter since you have it out. Mark the back cover to the starter housing as,,, if you instal it 180 degrees from where it was, the starter can spin in reverse.