97 XP Ignition/Starting Issue

[WLFK]

Hi forum.

Found myself here whilst searching online for a resolution to my problem.
Hopefully somebody here can help out and explain things simply for a newbie.

Here goes..

I have a 1997 Seadoo xp.
Originally had a seperate issue that I was battling, but after a year or so tucked away, I've now pulled it out to find another problem has reared its ugly head.

- When I put the DESS key on the post, I get no beeps. Normally I would get 2 short beeps, but now nothing, and the engine won't even try to crank when I press the Start/Stop button.

- I can still adjust the VTS, just no beeps or starting power.

- Battery is fully charged.

- From what I can find online, the common advice is to check continuity/resistance at the DESS post, and at the Start/Stop switch. But how? I have the wiring diagram so I know what wires are what, but where is the easiest place to test? I can't seem to dismantle the handle bar assembly.. Can I test from the plug that joins to the MPEM?

Please help! Apologies, you may need to draw some diagrams in crayon for me to understand

 

[WLFK]

Update:
I have unplugged the plug from the MPEM and successfully tested some components;
- DESS Post - Resistance when DESS key is unplugged, and continuity when it is plugged in.
- Start/Stop switch - Resistance when not pressed, and continuity when it is pressed.
- Buzzer gave me a resistance reading of .46 ohm.
- All fuses are in tact
- When bridging the solenoid, the motor cranks (yay! It makes some sort of noise!)

I get the feeling it's going to be an MPEM issue.. Is my spider sense correct? :s

 

[leroy5765]

I'm going through same kind of issue on a 96 xp, the general consensus is that you need to check your ground/Earth on the cable that goes from the battery to the starter ground and also in the front electric box, have you tested for voltage on the dess?

 

[WLFK]

Thanks for the reply leroy!
Is it just the ground that I would need to check? Or the positives as well?
And what would I be checking? Just to make sure they are clean and have good contact?
If so, what would I use to clean them if they were a bit rusty or corroded?

I haven't checked voltage on the DESS, only the resistance/continuity. What is the procedure to test the voltage, and what reading should I expect?

 

[leroy5765]

I would check both so you know what's what, the big cable that goes from battery to the engine block can rot inside. The voltage on dess can be tested by running a multimeter across the black/yell wire (+) and ground, you should have 12v, it appears that ground wires are a big problem for these skis! Hope it helps. I'm heading to look at mine now!

 

[Coastiejoe]

Cables and connections are one of the highest issues/solutions.

No matter what else is happening, if you have a bad cable or connections, they will/can seriously affect things. So,,, check them all. Especially the grounds. They are very prone to a poor connection due to corrosion issues.

 

[wfo speedracer]

Coastie is right 787's have a bad habit of losing ground at the lug on the ground cable where it bolts to the starter. A simple way to check for a bad ground cable is to use a set of jumper cables , connnect one end to the battery , the other to the statrer ground bolt and see what you have.

 

[mikidymac]

+1 I have worked on a couple 1997 XP's that had battery cable issues. The 1997+ XP's have some of the longest cables and need to be good internally and clean. IF you need new ones Minnatonka makes them.

Also make sure you have a known good battery, the walmart ones are known to be bad out of the box.

 

[leroy5765]

Just come back from looking at mine and it was a bad earth/ground at the front electrical box, run a cable from battery to box and hey presto its all back up and running! so definitely check your grounds!

 

[Coastiejoe]

Just come back from looking at mine and it was a bad earth/ground at the front electrical box, run a cable from battery to box and hey presto its all back up and running! so definitely check your grounds!

Can not stress this enough,,, Wires and connections....

 

[Minnetonka4me]

Back to the Original post.... Heres the test.

when you put the key on the post...do the gauges move at all? If not, take the key off the post and hit the start button twice. Now do the gauges move?

If so...#1, you have a bad beeper, they are flakey. #2 most likely you have a bad key or post. Usually the post. The only true way I have found is the test above.

IF the gauges move when you put the key on the post and stay "moved" longer than 2 seconds it is recognizing the key and there is an issue with your starter, solenoid, or wiring.


And yes....grounds are crucial.

 

[WLFK]

Thank you everybody for the prompt response..
Another update; Not sure if this information is relevant but I will relay it anyway.

Tested the +Ve and grounds and I think they were OK. I managed to get a reading from;
- Starter ground to solenoid red from batt = 11.94V
- Across the solenoid itself = 11.93V
- Starter red to solenoid gave me no voltage, but a resistance test showed it had continuity

Moving on to Minnetonka's post..
The speed gauge has never worked since I owned the ski, and I'm not sure if the fuel gauge has either (it's been a couple years since I used it, and only used it a handful of times)

However, when I put the key on the post, no gauges move. If I take the key off, and press the start button ONCE, the vts gauge moves up.

The vts gauge will also move up if I press the start button TWICE, BEFORE I put the key on the post.

Does that tell you anything or ring any bells?




After I played around with the wires, and pressed the start button lots of times, I managed to get the ski to make a couple of loud beep noises.. That makes me think that the beeper is still fine.
It makes a short then long beep, and happens when I press the start button about 4 or 5 times without the key on the post.
I eleven this signals the start of the advanced diagnostic mode?
If I proceed to follow by putting the key on the post, and pressing the start button, I get no beep.
The specs say that this means everything is right and then engine should start?

But it doesn't!

Does this mean starter or solenoid problems? Please tell me it's not the MPEM!

I hope you guys have more for me!

 

[wfo speedracer]

One of two things is going on here, either the MPEM is not reading the lanyard which means bad DESS post, lanyard or a wiring issue or your MPEM is toast .

When you put the lanyard on it's post the MPEM reads the chip in the key then starts a timer circuit, the gauges come on at this time and when you press the start button it sendS power to activate the starter solenoid, regretably on 97 model XP's its usually the MPEM.

 

[LouDoo]

Check your battery, it sounds to me that you my need a new one. Battery voltage under no load should be 13+v. Check the battery under load, while trying to start, if the battery voltage is less than 10.5 volts the MPEM will not work.

Correction, check the battery voltage while short the two main terminals on the solenoid, I just noticed your ski will not crank, also most automotive parts stores can check your battery under load.

Lou

 

[wfo speedracer]

Check your battery, it sounds to me that you my need a new one. Battery voltage under no load should be 13+v. Check the battery under load, while trying to start, if the battery voltage is less than 10.5 volts the MPEM will not work.

Correction, check the battery voltage while short the two main terminals on the solenoid, I just noticed your ski will not crank, also most automotive parts stores can check your battery under load.

Lou

I will agree the battery voltage is low but he still has another issue, even at that voltage it should move the gauges or beep when the lanyard is installed, the low battery voltage issue comes into play when starting, if it falls below 10.5 volts it will still crank over but the ignition will not fire.

 

[Coastiejoe]

Do a LOAD TEST on the battery. My guess is you took the readings without a load. This tells you very little. A load test on the battery as well as the cables tells you a lot.

 

[wfo speedracer]

A voltage drop test will tell you even more, I won't even try to explain this one follow the link.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm

 

[WLFK]

You guys are absolute champions, thanks for all the advice thus far.

Currently have my battery on charge, just to make sure it is 100% charged when I try to retest it under load and do a voltage drop test.

Putting aside those 2 things.. What are the other probable/likely causes?
Could somebody please list the components that it may be in an itemised order and how to test each one to see if it's faulty?

Pretty please!

 

[wfo speedracer]

The voltage drop test will test pretty much all of the components, you just have to keep going father and father down the line till you find the source of the voltage drop, the reason this works is because electricity will always take the path of least resistance , if that path is through the volt ohm meter then it will read it directly on the meter.

The article explains it pretty well but I would like to clarify a few points , one lead of the meter always needs to stay on the battery post , take the other lead and keep going farther and farther down the line till you reach the starter post, do this on both the positive and negative battery cables.

The other point is that this only works when you place a load on the battery IE push the start button.

 

[Coastiejoe]

No sense in going nuts with us creating a list of POTENTIAL problems. The load test will tell us all we need to know,,,

You just need to do it and tell us the results.

 

[WLFK]

Forgive my ignorance, but is a voltage drop test the same/similar as a load test?

 

[Fat Tony]

I just went through this same situation with my Speedster. I ended up having to replace the beeper and the DESS post. Same symptoms, no beeps when putting the key on the DESS post, and intermittent beeps when performing the temperature switch grounding test.

My bet is that you have a bad DESS post....

Here's a link to help you troubleshoot it.. http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?13605-DESS-post-replacement-maybe

 

[wfo speedracer]

Forgive my ignorance, but is a voltage drop test the same/similar as a load test?

I am not sure what they are calling a load test, load test to me means putting a load across the battery and see how much the voltage drops, this is the way batteries are tested.

Th voltage drop test on the other hand test how much the voltage drops acroos terminals, solenoids and wiring when a load is put on the battery.

 

[WLFK]

Tried to test the batter under load by placing a multimeter on the battery posts, getting a reading of 12.57V after it was on charge all night. When I hit the start button, the voltage didn't change. Does this mean faulty start button? Or faulty DESS post? I could be wrong, but I'm thinking the start button isn't working because there's a problem with the DESS post/key and the MPEM?

So I can't test the connections or cables under load, because the ski won't even try to start

 

[Coastiejoe]

You can jump the solenoid to put a load on the system as that will engage the starter. That said, you have an issue. You can test the start/stop button for continuity. You can test the DESS post as well.