95 GTX loads up in water

[midway]

My 95 GTX ran good when I first got it, then would not start/run, no fuel to carb, pulled carbs rebuilt, internal filters full of stuff, ran good on trailer, first time out after rebuild, ran good, 1 1/2 hour ride, put on trailer, flush, Saltwater. Got new spark plugs, had BR7ES in it, book called for BR8ES, I bought what the book called for, replace plugs, back trailer into water, start, fires and shuts down, finally get it started, will not clear out. Start checking, mag plug dry, pto plug wet, bought new set of BR7ES plugs and put in, runs better but just does not sound right, no more riding. I have pulled carbs, verified jets are correct, 75 pilot, 132.5 main, today tested pop off pressure, pto carb pops at 10 psi, mag pops at 38 psi. I now have to get springs and test to get pop off balanced. Then maybe it will run right, there is a missfire or uneven firing as it is, hope balancing pop off pressure will fix.

Then I will tackle the 96 GTX, starts, idles good, get away from dock, start to open throttle, does not want to go, loading up, as the engine warms up it starts to run good and will run good til cold again, this is before and after rebuild. I have a wet plug and a dry plug on it as well, mag, wet, pto, dry. I feel that I will find similar problem on the 96.

At the time of rebuild I did not have a way to test pop off, I now have that, so carbs will come off of 96 again for testing. Any other suggestions are welcome, these carbs are definitely different from automotive so I am open to suggestions. Thanks in advance for any help provided.

Had I found this forum before I did the work I would have done it all at that time, I just did not understand some things about these carbs that I now do understand from reading this forum, great information here.

 

[Bills86e]

tuning a '95 gtx 657x pair

My 95 GTX ran good when I first got it, then would not start/run, no fuel to carb, pulled carbs rebuilt, internal filters full of stuff, ran good on trailer, first time out after rebuild, ran good, 1 1/2 hour ride, put on trailer, flush, Saltwater. Got new spark plugs, had BR7ES in it, book called for BR8ES, I bought what the book called for, replace plugs, back trailer into water, start, fires and shuts down, finally get it started, will not clear out. Start checking, mag plug dry, pto plug wet, bought new set of BR7ES plugs and put in, runs better but just does not sound right, no more riding. I have pulled carbs, verified jets are correct, 75 pilot, 132.5 main, today tested pop off pressure, pto carb pops at 10 psi, mag pops at 38 psi. I now have to get springs and test to get pop off balanced. Then maybe it will run right, there is a missfire or uneven firing as it is, hope balancing pop off pressure will fix.

Then I will tackle the 96 GTX, starts, idles good, get away from dock, start to open throttle, does not want to go, loading up, as the engine warms up it starts to run good and will run good til cold again, this is before and after rebuild. I have a wet plug and a dry plug on it as well, mag, wet, pto, dry. I feel that I will find similar problem on the 96.

At the time of rebuild I did not have a way to test pop off, I now have that, so carbs will come off of 96 again for testing. Any other suggestions are welcome, these carbs are definitely different from automotive so I am open to suggestions. Thanks in advance for any help provided.

Had I found this forum before I did the work I would have done it all at that time, I just did not understand some things about these carbs that I now do understand from reading this forum, great information here.

You should set the pop-off at 27 psi on each carb. Check them both after re-assembly. They need to be within 1 psi of each other. Insure the passageways are clear of hardened oxidized petroleum clumps.

Check RV Clearance, and the fuel routeing before connecting the supply and return fuel lines to the carbs.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Then perhaps you are already aware that pop-off is a function of metering arm geometry(by slightly bending), metering spring tension, and brass metering needle seat orifice size.

You can find the details in the Mikuni manual:

www.mikuni.com/pdf/sbn_manual.pdf

 

[midway]

Thanks to both for the replies, I see you were pretty quick after my post last night, wife brought food in as I finished that post, so I ate and did not get back on last night.

I knew there was something else I wanted in the post, new needle and seats installed in rebuild, 1.5.

Thanks to Bills86e sticky "Carburetor Adjustments" and the links contained I now have a folder and a hard copy note book with several stickies and the Mikumi manual, which I will be using as reference when I get new springs and get back to finishing the job.

Thanks again for the information.

 

[Coastiejoe]

You mentioned the carbs were full of stuff. Was it a green goo? If so, do you still have Grey Tempo lines (I was thinking that in 95/6 they didn't have them, but i could be wrong).

 

[midway]

You mentioned the carbs were full of stuff. Was it a green goo? If so, do you still have Grey Tempo lines (I was thinking that in 95/6 they didn't have them, but i could be wrong).

No green goo, more like flakes, did resemble crumbled rubber, the guy I bought them from had changed the lines just before I got them, that is all but one short piece, tank to filter above tank, I have line to replace it with.

 

[Coastiejoe]

No green goo, more like flakes, did resemble crumbled rubber, the guy I bought them from had changed the lines just before I got them, that is all but one short piece, tank to filter above tank, I have line to replace it with.

I would replace all filters and go through the fuel selector due to the flakes coming from somewhere. The PO may have not done it, or maybe he did. But you will never know.

 

[Strizzo]

the waaaay uneven pop off on the 95 is a problem. the carb might have a bunch of fuel line debris in it keeping the diaphragms from doing their job. might want to change out the needles and seats while you're in there to be sure. i think if you get the pop off set even and in range, and set the rest of it to factory settings, it'll clear up most of the issues.

 

[midway]

I would replace all filters and go through the fuel selector due to the flakes coming from somewhere. The PO may have not done it, or maybe he did. But you will never know.

New filters already in carbs, bowl filter above tank was clean, I pulled it out to look at and only a couple pieces in it. Tried to get knob off of fuel valve on the 95, it did not want to move, I stopped, did not want to break it at that time, will probably order 2 new ones, PO said they ran better on reserve setting, I have ran on normal setting and seemed to be good. As you say, will never know what he did. I will check the valve on the 96 to see if I can get it out to clean then go from there on the next step of order new as needed. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Coastiejoe]

New filters already in carbs, bowl filter above tank was clean, I pulled it out to look at and only a couple pieces in it. Tried to get knob off of fuel valve on the 95, it did not want to move, I stopped, did not want to break it at that time, will probably order 2 new ones, PO said they ran better on reserve setting, I have ran on normal setting and seemed to be good. As you say, will never know what he did. I will check the valve on the 96 to see if I can get it out to clean then go from there on the next step of order new as needed. Thanks for the reply.

Running better in Reserve is ALWAYS a good clue. Normally the fuel selector.

Runner plug in the middle if the knob an then a screw/bolt holding the knob on. You probably knew that, just throwing it out there just in case.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Right, I see a post above that recommends checking pop after reassembly but I don't do that b/c I think it's hard on the diaphragm I suspect, that's the way I am, I guess, my quirk although a recheck maybe won't damage them. I always check/adjust the pop with the metering diaphragm removed, then recheck the metering needle seats seal well at some value less than pop to make sure they're not leaking after the diaphragm is installed.

Basically, I use the Mikuni procedure. There are a couple of things in the manual I don't agree with but those are mostly moot points and I think some info was lost in the Japanese -> English translation.

Beware there are two silver springs, 65gram and 95gram, the silver 95 gram is wound in opposite direction of the other three (silver, black. gold). That's how I can tell which spring is 95gram when I have everything laid out on my bench. The kits can throw you a curve ball when they include springs, lots of guys stick them in(whatever's in the kit) and neglect to confirm pop then wonder why it's pig rich on the low end or hard to start cause the pop is too strong and the metering needle won't pop open like it should.

 

[Pointhunter75]

What is the pop off on the 95 xp supposed to be? I saw 40-56 online somewhere but the sea doo manual said like 10-25 or something like that. Mine pops at 45

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

What is the pop off on the 95 xp supposed to be? I saw 40-56 online somewhere but the sea doo manual said like 10-25 or something like that. Mine pops at 45

This is probably where you found the higher value:

http://www.seadoosource.com/carbreference.html

It's pretty high, maybe this one has the finned flame arrestor, notice the year earlier is lower. I'd go by what your service manual says to use, but make sure it's the correct manual for your ski! Otherwise, I think that link provides researched data, not something someone just made up b/c they had nothing better to do.

If it's too much pop, the startup/restart will be tough b/c it will not flow fuel easily enough, choking the carb might be necessary in that case. It should restart easily when engine is warm or hot, ideally shouldn't require any choke(lack of fuel) or opening the throttle half way(too much fuel in crankcase, loaded up).

 

[Bills86e]

We recommend testing after re-assembly, with wd40 on the needles/seats . Pump up the inlet with finger on the outlet nipple and pump up til a few psi under pop-off and if it holds pressure for 5 minutes, the carb is ready to install. Its peace of mind.

 

[midway]

the waaaay uneven pop off on the 95 is a problem. the carb might have a bunch of fuel line debris in it keeping the diaphragms from doing their job. might want to change out the needles and seats while you're in there to be sure. i think if you get the pop off set even and in range, and set the rest of it to factory settings, it'll clear up most of the issues.

I agree with you on the uneven pop off, so far as the carbs having a bunch of debris in them, they were pulled apart and soaked in real carb cleaner, washed with water hose and blown out with 125 psi air, I have an old air blower with a piece of 1/8th steel tubing and a bend in the end of it that I can blow forwards and backwards through all of the ports. New 1.5 needle and seats installed at rebuild. I just did not have a pump to check pop off with and put back together with old springs, not once thinking that they would be weak. Yep, it came back and bit me. But that is ok, I will get through this and have a lot more knowledge than before.

This is probably where you found the higher value:

http://www.seadoosource.com/carbreference.html

It's pretty high, maybe this one has the finned flame arrestor, notice the year earlier is lower. I'd go by what your service manual says to use, but make sure it's the correct manual for your ski! Otherwise, I think that link provides researched data, not something someone just made up b/c they had nothing better to do.

If it's too much pop, the startup/restart will be tough b/c it will not flow fuel easily enough, choking the carb might be necessary in that case. It should restart easily when engine is warm or hot, ideally shouldn't require any choke(lack of fuel) or opening the throttle half way(too much fuel in crankcase, loaded up).

Now that all of these different pressure are coming up I have checked mine on several sources, and come up with several different pressures. Bills86e told me to set to 27 which is in the range of all of the different ones I found. This now brings up another question, how do I get 27psi pop off, according to Mikumi manual, 1.5 needle and seat with Silver 65 gram spring is 32psi pop off. I understand bending the arm, but that according to the manual, is to get the arm level with the carb housing, not too low and not too high. Do you trim the spring, and if so how much at at time? Trim the spring does not sound good to me, course I could be wrong.

 

[Pointhunter75]

I've read to clip half a coil at a time on the spring. Too little is better than too much unless you have spairs. My spring s are stock. Why would I have 45 psi?

 

[Strizzo]

I've read to clip half a coil at a time on the spring. Too little is better than too much unless you have spairs. My spring s are stock. Why would I have 45 psi?

DO NOT clip, stretch or squash the springs, that is why there are 4 of them, between the different springs, bending the arm, and different N/S combos, you can cover the full range of needed pop off values.

 

[RyanB72]

We recommend testing after re-assembly, with wd40 on the needles/seats . Pump up the inlet with finger on the outlet nipple and pump up til a few psi under pop-off and if it holds pressure for 5 minutes, the carb is ready to install. Its peace of mind.

Just an FYI from my experience. WD40 was not good to use to test for pop off and was told not to use it by Dr Honda. I ended up dabbing 2 cycle oil into my needle/seat and was able to successfully test the pop off on my ski. Right or wrong, that was my experience.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I've read to clip half a coil at a time on the spring. Too little is better than too much unless you have spairs. My spring s are stock. Why would I have 45 psi?

I'm not sure where you read this but I hope nobody ever does that. One should get the correct spring if pop's way off(you've got the wrong spring!) or if it's close and you're anxious enough to try getting it even closer (notice the spec'd range, you can drive a truck through that spec!) then you can bend the arm slightly. I prefer the arms the way they come from the factory myself, a razorblade dragged across the chamber bottom barely snags.

I'd have to stop reading from wherever that idea came from, please don't modify your springs!

 

[midway]

OK, where do I get new springs, they are obsolete everywhere I have called so far, I know there has to be another place to get 65 gram needle and seat springs. PWC dealers have only new stuff, no old, all they can tell you is obsolete. I have even called motorcycle shops in the area, same carb was used on motorcycles, waiting on a return call from the last place I called, if they do not have them I will have to look elsewhere. I checked here on your parts warehouse and several others online. I would also like to locate a 75 pilot jet for a SBN 38I. I can reuse the one I have, just may not be able to remove it again.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

OK, where do I get new springs, they are obsolete everywhere I have called so far, I know there has to be another place to get 65 gram needle and seat springs. PWC dealers have only new stuff, no old, all they can tell you is obsolete. I have even called motorcycle shops in the area, same carb was used on motorcycles, waiting on a return call from the last place I called, if they do not have them I will have to look elsewhere. I checked here on your parts warehouse and several others online. I would also like to locate a 75 pilot jet for a SBN 38I. I can reuse the one I have, just may not be able to remove it again.

Yeah, now I can see your source of frustration, these parts are really cheap IMO, so maybe they just can't ream you hard enough to make it worth their time. Anyway, last I checked I could get all these parts at a reasonable price from sellers on ebay, let me look and see if I can get you a couple links.

Meanwhile, I dunno if you've got the Mikuni manual, it might help a little if you don't ahve it yet, there's some good info inside you'll probably be glad to have (Mikuni P/N'S !!!!!!):

www.mikuni.com/pdf/sbn_manual.pdf

Here's a guy on ebay who's got 65 grams springs, not sure which ones your motor specs (65gram, or what), but here are the 65's, other weights are also available (Mikuni 65gram spring P/N: 73003030):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mikuni-65-G...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2d2a19c9&vxp=mtr

I buy carb parts from this guy all the time, call him if you want something special or maybe he can answer Q's, not sure, I don't ask many Q's anymore, kinda gave up finding someone who speaks English and knows something so can't say for sure.. The 75 jet is pretty common though, (Mikuni #75 pilot jet P/N: n100.606 75):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mikuni-N100...Parts_Accessories&hash=item25812a1ee4&vxp=mtr

Another #75 jet, free shipping:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mikuni-Low-...Parts_Accessories&hash=item51b0b54803&vxp=mtr

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

I agree with you on the uneven pop off, so far as the carbs having a bunch of debris in them, they were pulled apart and soaked in real carb cleaner, washed with water hose and blown out with 125 psi air, I have an old air blower with a piece of 1/8th steel tubing and a bend in the end of it that I can blow forwards and backwards through all of the ports. New 1.5 needle and seats installed at rebuild. I just did not have a pump to check pop off with and put back together with old springs, not once thinking that they would be weak. Yep, it came back and bit me. But that is ok, I will get through this and have a lot more knowledge than before.



Now that all of these different pressure are coming up I have checked mine on several sources, and come up with several different pressures. Bills86e told me to set to 27 which is in the range of all of the different ones I found. This now brings up another question, how do I get 27psi pop off, according to Mikumi manual, 1.5 needle and seat with Silver 65 gram spring is 32psi pop off. I understand bending the arm, but that according to the manual, is to get the arm level with the carb housing, not too low and not too high. Do you trim the spring, and if so how much at at time? Trim the spring does not sound good to me, course I could be wrong.

Hold on for a second, the real carb cleaner I have will turn a carb into a wet noodle if it's soaked long enough. Hopefully that hasn't happened to yours.

And for original factory springs, they don't go bad unless they've been subjected to abuse, like being soaked in real carb cleaner, which will eat them.

I recommend using acetone as a carb solvent, and if you really want to get down and dirty then find an ultrasonic cleaning machine. Okay, you can use turpentine as well, if it really has gum stuck in it turpentine is guaranteed to dissolve about anything you might find in there.

Real carb cleaner will eat the damn thing if it soaks too long, I never use that stuff even if the carb is corroded all to heck, and I've had some pretty corroded ones, with the butterfly shafts seized good, the whole nine yards, ultrasonic machine for those carbs.....

 

[midway]

I been using the real stuff for 50+ years, I understand what you say about that stuff eating a carb, I watch carefully. The little pieces, springs, jets and others did not get there so that is not what is wrong with my spring. I feel the same as you, springs usually do not go bad, that is why I did not worry about just putting the old springs back in. Then when I put the correct and colder spark plugs I had a problem and started looking for the real problem. Found some tools that would help do that and found the pop off problem. Thanks for the links to parts, I will check them out and hopefully get what I need. Who knows what the PO's had done before I got them, I am 3rd owner, they were clean, still shiny, upholstery still in great shape, I do believe it is the original, very few dents, dings, scratches, did run on trailer, no actual water test, I had no problem first time I put them in the water, so probably would not have made any difference. Thanks for the help.

 

[midway]

I have everything ordered.

 

[Sportster-2001-951C-Stock]

Nice! Party on, Garth!