2007 GTI won't start

[iddado]

Help!!! Been thru 20 pgs of forum before posting. My problem:

Starter engages but won't turn engine, just grunts.

Replaced battery, solenoid, starter, cleaned cables (like new anyway). Same result.

Removed cable and connected new auto cable direct to starter and engine ground, same result.
Remove plugs and engine turns fine. Took to dealer who removed jet pump and intake (to see valves move) with same result. Charged me 2 hrs labor and gave up.

Studying manual says intake/exhaust closes with TOPS. Although it's never been overturned, could these valves close and cause engine to bind?

Also, starter drive has a sprag clutch with bushings on each end. Has anyone ever seen these bushings wear out? I only have 70 hrs on it.

I'm totally lost! Any help will be greatly appreciated

ed

 

[BMANN06]

Sounds like the starter itself to me.

 

[iddado]

Sounds like the starter itself to me.

Starter is new. Tested old one and it's still good also. Thanks,

ed

 

[door54]

Hello,

This is the kind of scenario the resident gurus troll for. I'm a forum 'student', and the first two things I noticed, that you will be asked are...
1. Define grunt.... and 2. Did you replace the spark plugs?
Then, When was your last oil change? Have you removed the SC cover and attempted to spin the wheel with your fingers? Report back.

From here I'm an interested observer.

Good Luck to ya

 

[iddado]

Grunt is starter engages, but does not turn engine. What is SC cover and I assume wheel is the flywheel? Remember, I can spin the engine with the plugs out. New plugs don't matter yet, till I can spin engine. Thanks,

ed

 

[Duane72]

door54 is on the money. Answer those questions first and proceed.

If you pull the plugs and it turns over fine than it is definitely compression related. Now, that could mean several things, not that the compression is bad. It just means that with the plugs in the engine is under compression, so that is definitely what the starter is not overcoming. The battery is the first thing to check... you said you replaced. The starter is next... you said you replaced. Battery connections and grounds... you said you cleaned.

I have seen parts be bad brand new right from the box before so go back and trace your steps again. Load test the battery to make sure it has plenty of cranking power.

Question... when you turn the motor over without the plugs in it do you get spray from the cylinders? Without the plugs in, press the throttle wide open and hold it, then put your key on and turn the motor over until there is no spray of any kind coming out of the cylinders. Do so in no more than 20 second intervals so you don't burn out your starter. Put your plugs back in and try to start it normally. Do this out of the water and without the flush hose hooked to it. Let us know from there.

TOPS... interesting thought. Never heard of it happening, but not sure how that system works completely so can't say.

 

[BMANN06]

Grunt is starter engages, but does not turn engine. What is SC cover and I assume wheel is the flywheel? Remember, I can spin the engine with the plugs out. New plugs don't matter yet, till I can spin engine. Thanks,

ed

Agreed ... get it spinning with the plugs in first. I see your down in florida (meaning salt water) I understand you cleaned your battery cables .. at the front of the engine block there is 3 grounding terminals, make sure you clean these terminals and also clean the block where the grounds terminals fasten too. You could also use a set of jumper cables and put 2 12V batteries in parallel to get more ampacity ... this may be worth trying too. From my point of view sounds like weak battery/shotty ground/weak starter.

 

[iddado]

Thanks Duane,

To eliminate cables, battery and solenoid, I connected a new auto cable directly to the starter, jumpered from my Cummins diesel truck battery (which I know is good) thru engine ground and got same result, grunt.

Fine mist of fuel comes from cylinders when turning with excellent compression.

Old starter bench tests great, so with same result from new starter, don't suspect. Have had same experiences with "new" parts.

Dealer personnel weren't familiar with TOPS valve or sensor either. Have had similar symptoms from worn bushings in regular autos, but this sprag clutch is supported on each end with bushings. Ever seen wear in them?

Thanks,

ed

 

[Michael211_2000]

Grunt is starter engages, but does not turn engine. What is SC cover and I assume wheel is the flywheel? Remember, I can spin the engine with the plugs out. New plugs don't matter yet, till I can spin engine. Thanks,

Door was being sarcastic, Ed. But the "SC cover" he referred to is the air intake tube that goes on the Supercharger (I've never heard it referred to as a "cover" though). The "wheel" he referred to is the supercharger air impeller wheel, which you can reach with your fingers once you've removed the air intake tube off the supercharger. Neither is relevant to your problem however.

Even though you have replaced the battery and starter and cleaned the cable ends, this still sounds so very much like a voltage issue. The engine spins with the starter without the spark plugs installed, but with the spark plugs installed it just engages the starter but does not turn the engine over... am I correct?

Don't jump these 4TEC SeaDoo's, it can fry the MPEM that controls the engine and that thing is $$$$!

Let me ask this though, I'm not sure if this will help or not but try cranking it with just 1 spark plug installed... if it turns over, install another spark plug, then all 3. Report back what happens. If the TOPS valve has anything at all to do with this then the starter shouldn't be able to turn it over with even a single spark plug installed. Hold WOT to prevent air/fuel injection while trying this.

Also check your crankcase engine oil level, it should be in the middle of the bend on the dipstick NOT at the top of the bend!

ps. How do you know the old starter is good? Did you take it to an automotive electrical shop and have them check it? You bought the new starter NEW right? Just checking... sure sounds like the starter isn't getting enough amps to crank the engine over with the spark plugs in though.

pps. Have you charged the new battery, brought it up to full charge? Just because it's new doesn't mean it came fully charged... these 4TEC engines take alot of juice to turn over with the spark plugs in!

- Michael

 

[Dennis]

iddado,

you have gotten some excellent advice so far but I have a question. What was the situation with the ski just before this problem arose? It has been sitting? It got sunk? It was running fine and then ? I loaned it to my buddy? I just bought the ski and I don't know? Is the new starter from SBT? :cheers:

 

[iddado]

Micheal,

Thanks for the reply. I've read all your advices on the forum. Like your idea of putting a plug in and will try it this evening. I'm not jumping thru the electronice, I'm going just thru the starter. Battery has been fully charged several times, each time disconnecting the neg term. Old starter was tested by direct power from a hot battery, spins good. Don't have a growler.

As you're well aware, I don't have a supercharger.

For Dennis, the machine ran well all spring and stopped with my niece, who had to be towed in. Hasn't cranked since. Before, every once in a while it would just click, like I didn't push the start button hard enough, but it always cranked next try or two. Never been sunk or turned over. I have a matched pair and the other one runs well, knock on wood. Starter came mailorder from a shop in Georgia.

Again has anyone had any experience with starter drives (bushings?) or TOPS valve closure? Is there any way to check for possible back pressure in exhaust system short of disassembly?

Thanks,

ed

 

[Dennis]

They don't have issues with drive bushings. The TOPS valve will not keep the engine from cranking. The exhaust is not the issue. TOPS has nothing to do with the engine intake and exhaust valves.

 

[iddado]

Michael,

Thanks, thanks, thanks. Put one plug in and it tried. Put 2nd plug and it tried better. Put 3rd in and it fired right up. Works like new now. Why? What happened? Don't understand, but love the results. Thanks again. You're GOOOOOD!!!

iddado
ed

 

[Duane72]

Ok. That's wild. Looking forward to the "how come?" on this one Michael. How did that help?

 

[BMANN06]

Ok. That's wild. Looking forward to the "how come?" on this one Michael. How did that help?

+1 ... confused!!!

 

[Michael211_2000]

Ok. That's wild. Looking forward to the "how come?" on this one Michael. How did that help?

Yeah I'm dumbfounded as well, that wasn't the result I was expecting actually but I'm glad it's starting now. There must have been some liquid in the cylinders that it finally cleared out completely, only liquid in the cylinders would have locked the engine and prevented it from turning over previously. That's my best guess at any rate.

Ed any idea how it might have gotten liquid in the cylinders? If it's an intercooled model it could have a leaking intercooler, or if someone left it on the flush port with water turned on while not running the engine that could also get water in the cylinders.... either way, your symptoms were consistant with a liquid (water most likely) in the cylinders liquids don't compress so the engine cannot turn over as a result. You must have blown it out finally while the spark plugs were out. That's my best guess.

- Michael

 

[Michael211_2000]

For Dennis, the machine ran well all spring and stopped with my niece, who had to be towed in. Hasn't cranked since.

And if it was towed over 5mph for any distance, it would push water into the engine thru the exhaust. If you read your owner's manual there is a towing procedure you have to follow, clamping a water line off if you intend to tow above 5mph, otherwise water pressure will build up in the jetpump and start water flowing into the engine thru the exhaust manifold (just because of the forward motion of the watercraft... the jetpump is like a scoop under there scooping water up even though the impeller isn't turning)... it only takes a little water to hydrolock the engine! I bet they towed her in too fast and got a little water in the cylinders...

Before, every once in a while it would just click, like I didn't push the start button hard enough, but it always cranked next try or two.

The starter relay was going bad. Inside the relay there is an electromagnet that pushes a metal bar against the 2 terminal posts when you push the start button, but over time the terminal posts inside the relay start to char... I took mine apart, the backside of those 2 terminal posts were blackened with char from the electricity going thru them every time it engages. That charring, as it builds up, begins to impeded the voltage flow resulting in you hearing just the "click" of the electromagnet slamming that metal bar against the 2 terminal post ends inside the relay. Since you replaced the relay that shouldn't happen again for a long time though.

- Michael

 

[iddado]

Thanks again,\

Googled "hydrolock" and it could be any liquid that causes it. Remember the old cars that would "VAPORLOCK". As to why, my suspicion is that the fuel tank was pressurized and somehow pushing fuel into the cylinders. There's not been a sign of water anywhere.

I knew about pinching off the water supply when towing, which hasn't been done. Looking back, I had been smelling fumes when I opened the seadoo up and looked several times for leaks, never finding any. Also, I'd noticed when I put gas in that the cap would release pressure when opened. I've seen dirt dobbers stop up vent lines on bigger boats causing similar problems. I'll look for vent problems first. You raise an interesting point with the intercooler, which I'll look into.

The good news is I met you'all, have a new starter/battery/solenoid for a couple years and hopefully a good machine. Bad news don't know the cause and was out several hundred dollars, which the only wasted $ was with the dealer, which I called today and told the fix.

When I find why, I'll certainly payback the help received and thanks again.

ed

 

[Michael211_2000]

Looking back, I had been smelling fumes when I opened the seadoo up and looked several times for leaks, never finding any. Also, I'd noticed when I put gas in that the cap would release pressure when opened.

Ed, my RXT does that too though and always has... there's always a little pressure releasing sound when opening up the fuel cap, and it always smells faintly of fumes if I haven't run it or had the seats off to vent the hull in a week or so.

My fuel vent line goes to the right side of the hull just inder the rub-rail almost parrallel with the steering.... lie down on a creeper or something on the right side and look at the underside of the rub-rail and you should see there are 2 vents there, 1 is for the battery (if you aren't running a gel-cell battery, it uses this vent) and the other is the fuel cell vent. Once you locate it on the outside of the hull you will know where to look on the inside of the hull for the lines. Could be the fuel cell vent line is crimped somewhere?

Good luck, let us know if you find anything to account for all this heck!

ps. When you ride it next, well I suggest YOU ride it for the 1st hour or two and stay somewhere near the boat launch or dock in case it give you trouble again... get some confidence in it before you take any long cruises or let anybody else loose on it, ok? Also always educate anybody you let take it as to what to do in the case of a problem, towing procedures etc. You may know, but they may not!

- Michael

 

[Duane72]

Now that it is running again, I would hook it up to the flush port and run water through it with the motor running. If the innercooler is shot you'll know it. It will drown the motor and shut it down. Save you the trouble of finding out after taking the trouble of putting it into the water and having to retrieve it. Run it for as much as 4 minutes on the trailer hooked to the hose and see what happens. If it stays running good and idling then i'd feel ok taking it to the lake.