Tweaking 92 SP bought at auction

[phoenix02]

I bought this ski at auction last fall just before the temps dipped to low to ride. It was said to have a new motor. I did have a chance to see if it was going to be ready to ride quickly and ran into a few snagglepusses. So I just pulled the tank and flushed it to get ready for spring.

I found the suction lines inside the fuel tank to be disintegrated. I opened the carbs but they were clean so I don't think it ever ran. It has good compression. I couldn't get the engine to crank over with just jumper cables on a car battery with the plugs in. It seemed a little stiff so I pulled the jet pump off. Had to create a puller since the area that the lines go thru the transom were siliconed. That part has me a little confused. I'm putting it back together (after discovering that neither the pump nor engine were binding but coupled together but misaligned motor) and can't find any reference on the site about water leaks that would tell me how to seal that area on the transom back up. There are no seals showing on the parts diagram, yet there are counterbores around the tube ports on the pump. I'd sure like some guidance as I'm kind of expecting some water leaks when I put it in the water. I scraped all the silicone off. I did put a neoprene ring in, even though it's not spec'ed for the 1992 model but that doesn't seem to have any sealing for the transom.

I replaced both seals for the jet pump shaft where later years has the carbon ring seal. I found the bailing o-ring seals that came with the cone o-ring seal to be too small cross-section to contact the hull so I pulled them off and put in some HNBR o-rings from an assortment box I have for air-conditioning but they too don't stick out very far to provide much contact with the hull. And the holes that the tubes go thru are big enough that the o-rings may not have any fiberglass surface to contact there either. I've been searching the forum for a couple days but can't find anything that explains what creates a seal there so that water doesn't leak in the tube holes when it's in the water. Thanks for your help. I think I have all the parts I need to get her in the water this holiday weekend.

 

[mikidymac]

On the older aluminum pumps there are no o-rings or neoprene seals used. Just lots of Ultra Black RTV silicone.

Typically a bad battery, bad cables or weak starter prevents it from cranking.

 

[phoenix02]

I bought the Ultra Blue as specified in the repair manual. It must be easier to separate to disassemble. Now I'm ready to take the leap and put the silicone on. I'm wondering about the steering cable. I can't find anything about sealing that at the transom in the manual. That nut is going be pretty difficult to remove after I have the pump back in there. Should I do any sealing of that before I install the pump?

 

[phoenix02]

I have never used 515/518 before but I am following the instructions of the manual when reinstalling the jet pump. I asked on another thread about the pipe sealant for the cone plug as I didn't want to buy another specialty item if not required. Lacking a reply, I did find a member who uses 518 reliably on the plug after wiping the threads with solvent instead of the Permatex activator. I used carb cleaner because I haven't liked the residue that my brake cleaner spray is leaving behind. After install, I read in another forum, that Brake Kleen was very similar to the makeup of the activator Permatex sells. Too late now. I will say the internal threads of the cone pulled some of my Q-Tip cotton off the swab as well as picked up some oil so I'm not really confident in the cleaning of those internals but the plug threads were very clean with carb cleaner. I installed the plug with 518 and crossing my fingers. I'm reading the horror stories of leaking cone plugs.

I am finishing up the stern assembly before turning my sights on the fuel tank. I installed the plastic bailer and water tubes into the pump with teflon tape because I didn't like the way the tubes stuck in the pump and I nearly destroyed one just to remove it to clean the sealant off of the jet pump mounting surface.

 

[phoenix02]

I lake tested and no water leaks into the hull. But, I premixed 1/2 tank of gas in case the oil injection pump was defective. The throttle after about 1/2 open is sluggish. the plugs started accumulating significant carbon so I filled the rest of the tank with straight gas. Cold plugs were in it so I bought some BR7ES and tested again. Still sluggish throttle after 1/2 open. I only got about 1/2 mile away from the ramp and it experienced a drop in performance so I brought it home.

After reading some other posts about sluggish response, I ordered an official OEM carb kit, a new fuel filter, and opened up my fuel valve to confirm operation and the fuel filter as well confirming it's clean. I blew in the fuel tank vent and air bubbled out the cap so that appears to be operational. I pulled the plugs and found the front plug a nice clean grey but the back plug was totally fouled. I scraped it with a feeler gauge and cleaned down in the cavity with a pipe cleaner. I want to lake test it again before the carb kit arrives. Any thoughts about that rear cylinder and sluggish throttle? The carb was clean when I opened it up last fall - like maybe it never had any fuel in it. I reassembled it as it was.

 

[mikidymac]

Don’t change to a hotter plug as that’s not your problem.

You have to rebuild the carb correctly with oem mikuni parts including needle and seats and the correct springs.

If one plug is gray you might have seized a piston so you need to check compression before doing anything else including riding it. Riding it with a top end bog will only damage the engine because it’s probably lean.

 

[phoenix02]

140 rear, 145 front. Dr. Honda says the 7 plug is what is called for in older 2-strokes so that's what I'm running in it, especially since I am breaking the engine in with both mix/injection oil.

 

[phoenix02]

Carb is done although the parts already appeared to be Mikuni and rubber still soft as expected. Culprits: 1) needle/seat leaked and 2) low & high speed screws were way off. The low speed was 3-1/4 and the high speed was 2. Seadoo Source indicates 1 for low speed and 0 for high speed. Previously, all that choking did was flood the engine. It took a while to get it started now but it seems that the engine is responding properly to the choke. 7 plugs are in it and I am set to lake test it in early morning and then travel a couple hours to a group event on another lake.

 

[phoenix02]

It took over 5 min to get this started at the lake today. I was wondering if it ever would start. I left it on the trailer on the ramp and above the water to lessen the load on the motor. I have to open the throttle all the way to get it to give me the first pop -after about 5 minutes. I pulled the plugs twice and they showed a little wet but when I spun the engine, no mist visibly escaped the spark plug holes so I am not thinking it is flooding. Pretty decent acceleration but not much more pull over half throttle after it plains out. After it started, it ran pretty decent for not adjusting any of the settings from base. It may just be the normal performance from the single carb setup. Better fuel economy I'm hoping. After about a 5 minute test, it stalled out when I brought it back to the trailer. I had to use the choke again to get it started.

My pop-off pressure is 27 psi.

I'm going to read up on adjusting the carb. Any tips are appreciated.

 

[phoenix02]

Although I seem to be talking to myself on this thread, I'm at least documenting this for others who come behind me with the same issues. I am under the impression that every reply bumps the thread back up to the top of the forum. I must be stumping everyone except mikidymac.

Today, I finished off the half-speed throttle portion of the break-in procedure. We're now fluctuating throttle up to 90%. It is still terribly hard to start. It usually fires up under full throttle and even after it stalls out on idle after warming up, needs a few cranks under full choke to get a pop. My 170 lb son took it out and complained of power drop at certain times under heavier throttle. Then he added another 110 lb son and cruised around a little and came back in noticing severe engine issues.

I took it out and it seemed to be ok with just 185 lbs on it. Then I added a 170 lb passenger and the thing would not plane out. At 50-90% throttle, I started noticing periodic thumping or thud under this heavy load. Could it be an exhaust pop/backfire? There was no pattern to it but it felt almost like water in the gas except that it wouldn't misfire in a string, it was always only a single thud. Sometimes the thuds would come a second apart. Because I have to vary the throttle during this break-in process, I couldn't really tell if it would have become a pattern under normal operation. The really troubling part is that the thud can be felt through the seat/hull and the engine speed drops by at least 500 rpm.

It didn't seem to get worse as we abused it this way for maybe a mile, which may mean it's exhaust pop. I can't imagine a mechanical issue repeating for 20 minutes without the component self-destructing. I made my way back to drop off my adult passenger. I took it back out alone and atop sizable waves, I started to notice that the thud could periodically be felt as I skipped and porpoised across tall waves under 70-90% throttle. It planed out fine with just me on it but this engine issue is really a new experience for me. Has anyone ever noticed it on their ski? I'm at a standstill until I get some brighter minds to weigh in on this problem with me. My carb is still set at factory settings (0 & 1) which is WAY different than where I found them but I don't know how to tweak the settings after reading a carb setting thread. I read about putting a restricter in the fuel return line but haven't done that. I wonder if that might be related to a known carburetor issue on this model. I have not checked all my check valves in the fuel and oil system, just the main fuel tank vent. I can't find anything relevant on this forum or the other popular sites. Thump and thud don't seem to be good keywords.

 

[phoenix02]

I'll put my fixes so far in this list so they are easier to see:
Cleaned fuel tank and filled with fresh gas and 50:1 oil
Oil tank 20% full
checked fuel tank vent valve
cleaned fuel selector valve
Rebuilt carb with Mikuni parts
Set screws to factory 0 & 1 setting instead of 2.5 & 3.5 as found
Replaced needle/seat with Mikuni
Pop-off pressure 27 psi
Replaced jet pump oil and cone o-rings
New plugs BR7ES instead of BR8ES as found

Fuel and oil lines are clear and black variety

 

[WhiskeyD]

Sounds like you're not getting fuel or you have an air leak in the fuel system somewhere. I would trying running a line from the reserve on the pick up directly to the carb and see If anything changes.

 

[SIMPLEARKANSAN]

I've read that cleaning the fuel selector valve is not recommended as the internal O-rings dry rot and allow for an air leak. I would order a new OEM fuel selector.

 

[phoenix02]

I resealed the fuel pump and leak tested it. I also greased up the inside of the selector valve in case an o-ring was drying out. I have a fitting to connect the reserve line to the feed line to bypass the selector in case it's leaking air, but forgot the tool to loosen and tighten the hose clamps when I lake tested today. I was alone and the water was calm so I really couldn't test the engine under heavy load at all. It starts and idles better now. On smooth water and 180 lbs, it runs great. I'm still fluctuating throttle <90% for the rest of this gas tank. The engine pulls great off the line but it still feels like there is not much throttle response above 50% at speed. I need to bring my son to see what it does under more load but I'm beginning to think this is the way it runs. I bought it because with a single carb, the fuel bill wouldn't kill me. It goes a good 40 mph on 90% throttle or 70% throttle. There is just not much difference. Should I try cracking the high speed screw out a little and see what that does?

I need to replace at least one trailer bearing before I head out this weekend on my 3 hour trip to another lake. I need to research how you find replacement seals and bearings for a generic trailer. This weekend will be the next big test for the ski engine.

 

[DJDaveOtt]

You can find trailer bearings at stores like Rural King, Tractor Supply and so on. If you don't have any of those nearby, check a RV/camper dealer or service center.
As for your ski and how it's running, it's a 92 SP...it is what it is, not that fast. From what you are saying, hole shot and acceleration are good, but the throttle position of 70% + is all the same. I would think your throttle cable maybe needs adjusted...not sure I'd mess with the high speed screw as you're likely getting all she has to offer already.

 

[mikidymac]

I would wager you still have a fuel supply issue. Spend the money and do it correctly with new parts before you run that engine lean and blow it up.

 

[phoenix02]

Is there any sort of pressure or vacuum test to perform to locate a leak? I've replaced everything that I can think of except fuel lines, check valves, oil filter, and fuel selector (which is clear and clean.)

 

[mikidymac]

I would replace the fuel lines to be safe and the selector.

 

[AKnarrowback]

Go on line to a site.

www.groupk.com

Find their technical papers and start studying. They have tons of good info, maybe not your exact answer, but the theory of how these things work is covered very well. I wish I had this kind of resource 24 years ago when I was a DOO mechanic. The amount I have learned from these papers in the last 24 hrs.........

 

[phoenix02]

I finished my break-in yesterday. Two tanks of gas run through it. Problems that persist: 1) hard to start, 2) stalls at idle, 3) engine happiest at 70% and not much benefit for going higher throttle after plane-out.

I am going to pressure test the fuel lines connected to the selector valve before I swap out the parts. I did think of one possible issue from my history of repairing this unit. I had pulled the tank and found the completely disintegrated fuel pickup tubes. When I replaced those, I cleaned out the pickup filters but didn't know there is a check-valve in there too. They are thin brass and when I cleaned the stale fuel residue out with carb cleaner, I noticed the attach nipple were deformed. I stuck a round into the nipple and straightened as best I could and assembled. Now I'm thinking that these could be defective and if the fuel is draining backwards when engine is running slow or off, it could be causing my starting problems and idle issues. Any thoughts before I shop for some aftermarket check valve pickups?

 

[phoenix02]

Go on line to a site.

www.groupk.com

Find their technical papers and start studying. They have tons of good info, maybe not your exact answer, but the theory of how these things work is covered very well. I wish I had this kind of resource 24 years ago when I was a DOO mechanic. The amount I have learned from these papers in the last 24 hrs.........

Looks like I should make some plugs out of inner tube rubber and see about pressure testing the engine, eh? No wonder so few people do it though. Pulling the intake and exhaust manifolds can't be a picnic. And all signs looking like this was a fresh engine seems like I'm wasting my time. But now that I'm free to open the throttle all the way, it could be trouble if there are leaks. Is it the ignition side main seal that usually fails? Can you pull the old one out with the engine assembled?

I learned a lot from their "white papers" on the site too. He states that 40% of the skis on the water leak air. Also that leak tests should be done every two yrs since that could be the life of crank seals. I never knew these old skis were so maintenance-heavy. Sort of like a Ferrari that needs a clutch every 15K miles and you have to pull the engine to do it. Pretty much takes all the fun out of owning one.

 

[AKnarrowback]

The "seals" used to pressure test a motor by blocking the intake and exhaust are solid steel plate with a rubber face. Rubber to seal the plate, the plate to keep the seal from expanding out and giving you a false reading over time.

Start with the simple things first. Make sure the fuel system is intact, all components are there and functioning, fuel lines are not leaking or degraded inside, carbs are clean and adjusted, fuel pump is operating.

Just to clarify your last question. NEVER pop a crank seal out and push a new one in. They were not designed to be installed that way and that seal, if installed in this fashion, will always be questionable if you have to troubleshoot things later. The case needs to be split open just like the engineers intended.

 

[phoenix02]

Today I pressure tested the fuel delivery system from the pickup tubes to the carb. No leaks.

Tomorrow I plan to start tearing down to the manifolds so I can put expansion plugs in and put pressure to the pulse line to leak test the block. I hear I should pull the ignition cover to see the crank seal.

 

[mikidymac]

I would just pull the MAG housing cover, not the entire housing.

 

[phoenix02]

I would just pull the MAG housing cover, not the entire housing.

Just if I see bleed down of pressure? Or will the case hold pressure itself if I don't pop the cover? The battery is in the way so it's another operation to do that, if necessary.