Starting Problem 2005 RXP

[Dick Berg]

Last summer, while in the middle of Donner Lake, my son removed the fob to replace it with the learning one. He was unable to re-start the engine. He then reinstalled the regular fob and still was unable to start the engine. Interestingly, the starter motor would only turn over for a second or two and then stop. We took the unit to Thin Air, the Seadoo dealer in Truckee who was unable to replicate the problem.
This morning, the Chief (my wife) and I took the RXP back out on Donner Lake. The engine started up instantly After about 10 minutes, I realized that I had the learning fob installed, so I stopped the engine, installed the regular fob and was unable to re-start the engine. We paddled back to shore, disconnected the battery, and let it sit for 5 minutes, but was still unable to start the engine. The starter moter would run for 4 to 5 seconds, but the engine showed no sign of starting.
When we got back to the house, I disconnected the battery and charged it up. A few hours later, I reinstalled the battery and after a few tries, the engine finally started up. I shut it down, and re-tried starting it and it started instantly every time.
A few hours later, we took the RXP back to Donner Lake, and it started instantly.
When we were done, and near the shore, I stopped the engine and tried re-starting the engine. The starter only ran for a second or two, similar to what happened last summer, and the engine wouldn't start.
At this point, my suspicion is there's something that's temperature sensitive in the electronics that's causing the problem.
Has anyone out there had any similar problems, and if so, what was the root cause?
If at all possible, I would like to fix the problem myself.
Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Dick

 

[Michael211_2000]

Dick, this sounds like a bad starter... when your starter get's hot (from the engine block heat) it stops working.

- Michael

 

[Dick Berg]

Michael - Thanks for the response. I agree that something is getting warm/hot and causing the problem.
However, when we got stuck after stopping the RXP in the middle of the lake, the starter cranked properly for 5 to 6 seconds with no sign of engine starting.
I agree that the starter only cranking for a second or so could very well be a faulty starter, responding to the heat from the engine, as you suggested.
I replaced the starting relay a few weeks ago thinking that that may have been related to the problem experienced last summer, but clearly it wasn't.
I did the summer tune up a week ago, with new oil, oil filter, spark plugs. After doing the work, the instructions said to run the engine, stop it and check the oil level to make sure it was in the proper range. I must have started and stopped the engine 5 or 6 times, and each time it started instantly. Of course, the engine really didn't have a chance to warm up during these brief periods, so the engine being hot/warm theory is still valid.
I just wonder if some sensor that allows the engine to start is the real culprit.

Thanks again for your help.

Regards,
Dick

 

[Michael211_2000]

Starter problems are not always consistent however, Dick. IDK. If this is an electronic sensor problem you'll likely have to take it to a dealership and let them run a computer diagnostic on it (did Thin Air do that already?). The thing about electronic sensors however is that they have no moving parts to wear out, unlike your starter for example.

This could be a combination of problems even: flakey starter, weak battery (plenty of volts, not enough amps) and bad fuel for example. I agree that in 5 or 6 seconds of cranking the engine should have started.... unless it's got nasty fuel clogging up the system (sounds like you haven't been able to run it very much since last summer after all; was the fuel treated with a stabalizer?).

If you can figure out how to reliably reproduce the problem I'm sure that would help to find the fault. But, if the starter is in fact flakey then that'll be difficult to do. Also, how old is your battery? You might want to pull the battery out and take it to local auto parts for testing (which is free!). They can tell you if the battery is putting out the correct starting amps... if the starter is taking up all available battery amps, then there may not be enough power left over for the ignitiion system to operate correctly.

That's everything I can think of.

- Michael

 

[Dick Berg]

Michael - Thanks again for your insight into the problem.
The battery is less than two years old, and I charged it fully before using it. During the winter and spring months, I would charge it every few months.
The fuel is from last year, however, I filled the tank up all the way last fall and added a fuel stabilizer to it.
I assume that replacing the starter will require removing the engine, is that correct?
I'm a do it yourselfer, with lots of automotive experience, but no Rotax engine experience. If the engine didn't have to be removed, or a lot of difficult disassembly was required, I would replace the starter myself.
What is your opinion? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Are there any special tools required to replace the starter?

Regards,
Dick

 

[Michael211_2000]

I assume that replacing the starter will require removing the engine, is that correct?

Nope, just unbolt the exhaust manifold and pull it. Then you can easily reach the starter and remove it with the engine still in the hull. You might want to check all your major electrical connections for any corrosion also, included the cables that ground at the front of the engine under the intercooler hoses. Corroded cables can cause all sorts of problems.

If you can find an automotive electrical shop that rebuilds automotive starters they should be able to test your SeaDoo starter and rebuild it if necessary (cheaper than buying a new starter, and if there's nothing actually wrong with your starter they should tell you that for free!). They can at least take it apart clean the brushes and lubricate the starter shaft for a very small fee if it doesn't need full rebuilding.

At 2 years old, I'd still pull the battery and have it tested as well... you need to be able to eliminate as many potential causes as possible. If all else fails, you're going to have to try to figure out how to reproduce this problem on demand... if it has to be run on the lake with the Learner Key for 20 minutes, then turned off and switch to regular Key for it not to start then so be it. Once you've elminated the starter and the battery as sources of this problem, all you can do is try to figure out how to reproduce the problem.

- Michael

 

[Dick Berg]

Michael - I just looked at the shop manual, and it states that if you remove the "engine cover", you can access the starter without removing the exhaust manifold. Removing the engine cover looks very easy - detach and move the coolant expansion tank aside and remove 5 retaining screws. It's shown on page 263 of the shop manual.
Now I'm trying to find the cheapest place to purchase a new starter.
Do they sell re-built starters anywhere?
There are so many on-line places to buy parts, do you have a favorite?
Agreed, I'll also have the battery checked.

Regards,
Dick

 

[Michael211_2000]

Oops! Yeah I was thinking about my RXT, Dick... on your RXP, removing that cowl must expose quite a bit of the engine. RXT's don't have that engine cowl thingy.

I've not bought any starters for SeaDoo's... I'd guess any decently reputable online parts store that carries SeaDoo parts would be ok. SeaDoo Warehouse, SBT, Watercraft Superstore, even Overtons. I've read that the no-name SeaDoo starters on Ebay are crap, though occassionally there is a genuine SeaDoo OEM starter on Ebay from a parted out SeaDoo at good prices. Look in your local Yellow Pages though for an Automotive Electrical shop, they rebuild starter motors of every type and can test yours and tell you if it's good or not. Some auto parts stores even have machines to test starters on that will tell if the starter is good or not. Before spending money on a new starter (or used one), I'd have that one tested 1st somewhere!

- Michael

 

[LSx Believer]

I'm having the exact same problem. Any update on this?

 

[Dick Berg]

LSx Believer - The last time we used the beast, it worked properly.
I went to the local dealer, and the service guy agreed that it's most likely the starter. As I wrote above, I replaced the starting relay with no help.
I think the starter may not have rotated the engine fast enough for it to catch when it did run for 3 or 4 seconds.
When the engine does start instantly, the starter really spins it. Although this sounds like it could be a weak battery, it also could be the brushes on the starter.
We bought the beast used, so I have no knowledge of it's history, and how many times it had been started.
At this point, my plan is to baby it through the summer, and in the fall replace the starter motor.
I looked, and even removing the engine cover doesn't leave much room, so replacing the starter has to be done by feel. I asked the service guy at the dealer whether they remove the exhaust manifold, and he said that it's up to the technician. If you have done the job many times before, then you can do it by feel.
In my case, I plan to remove the exhaust manifold, then the starter should be right there. Although the temptation is to see if it can be done without removing the exhaust manifold, since there's a risk of breaking a bolt or causing other damage. According to the shop manual, there isn't a gasket between the manifold and the head.
I know the battery is in good shape, and since it lives in a relatively cool location, there shouldn't be any reason for it to be temperature sensitive.
On the other hand, as Michael stated above, the temperature in the engine compartment can get quite hot. And, since the starter is right under the exhaust manifold, it likely gets very hot.
Having worked on automobiles for many years, starters can exhibit many strange symptoms, and heat can make them even stranger.
I researched starters on the internet and it lists for around $350, although I have seen it advertised for under $300. The dealer offered to sell it to me for $305.
Once the colder weather sets in, I can spend more time researching the best deal and replacing the starter.
I hope this somewhat answers your question.

Good luck,
Dick

 

[LSx Believer]

Dick,
I pulled the starter off my rxp and took it into a local electric motor, starter, alternator repair shop to be tested. He told me that the starter was like new and there was nothing wrong with it. I told him that the starter would turn the engine over for a second or two then disengage, and when the starter disengaged i could still hear it spinning. He told me that the starter I brought him didn't have a shaft that moves back and forth to engage into the flywheel like most cars. He said that there is another gear that goes between the starter and the flywheel that engages from centrifugal force. He thinks that there is a weak or broken spring type mechanism that needs to be replaced on that floating gear. When I returned to my rxp I stuck my finger into the hole the starter goes into and could feel a gear that spun freely. It looks to me that the whole back of the engine is going to have to be taken apart to be able replace that part.

It took me about a hour and a half to get the starter off. It wasn't the easiest thing but I got it done.

:cheers:
David

 

[Dick Berg]

LSxBeliever - Thanks for the information.
Were you able to remove the starter motor without removing the exhaust manifold?
Please advise on the method you used to remove the starter motor.
Your symptoms weren't exactly the same as mine. When my starter stopped, there was no indication that the starter motor itself continued to run, it was dead silent. In your case, since you could hear the starter motor continue to run without turning the engine, it sounds like the "Bendix" failed. The Bendix is a generic name for an overunning clutch, which engages the ring gear on the flywheel when the starter motor pinion gear rotates. It also allows the engine to turn faster than the starter when the engine first starts up.
It looks like you'll have to pull the engine to get access to fix it.
I assume you have the shop manual for the beast. If not, you can download it for free from the internet.
In the shop manual, under the heading of "Starter turns but overruning clutch pinion doesn't mesh with ring gear", the causes are listed as:
Worn clutch pinion gear
Defective clutch
Poor movement of clutch on splines
Worn clutch bushing
Worn ring gear

Regards,
Dick

 

[LSx Believer]

Dick,
I was able to find manuals online. Before I pull the motor I'm going to try to trouble shoot a little more. My brother brought up a good point. The sound I was hearing could have been the fuel pump running instead of the starter. The hardest problem for me is that the starting issue isn't consistent. Sometimes it works, and other times it doesn't.

I pulled the starter by pulling the exhaust manifold. Removing the manifold was pretty strait forward. It was just hard to get to the lower bolts. I might have been able to pull the starter by leaving the manifold in place if I knew what I was up against. Either way I don't wish having to change a starter on one of these on anybody.:banghead:

:cheers:
David

 

[Dick Berg]

David - Very interesting, thanks for sharing your experience removing the starter motor.
I would expect that the starter and the fuel pump would sound quite different, but I'm not certain. I do know, from automobile experience, that the starter motor will spin quite fast with no load, i.e. the engine on it. It's more like a high pitched whine, but the starter motor on a SeaDoo may sound different. Did the shop you took the starter to exercise it a number of times? It might be worthwhile to disassemble the starter and inspect the brushes and related springs. These are the typical things that will wear out on a motor like this. Worn brushes and weak springs can result in various failure modes, both hard and intermittent.
It doesn't look like a big deal to disassemble the starter. The manual shows that the end caps need to be marked so that they get reassembled in the same orientation.
In my case, the problem only occurred when the engine was hot. When the engine was cold, it started instantly every time. As I wrote, I didn't hear any noise from the starter when it failed. that's why I assumed (dangerous word) that the problem was the starter motor.
Did you experience your intermittent problem only when the engine was hot, or at various engine temperatures?
Please keep me posted on your progress.

Good luck,
Dick

 

[LSx Believer]

Dick,
I did a few things to my RXP and I think I fixed my problem. I decided to change my oil. My RXP only has 35hrs on it but it's been 5-6 years since my last oil change. I followed the shop manual to the T. The manual instructs to turn the engine over at WOT so that the computer goes into flood clear mode and will not supply fuel. As I was doing this my RXP acted just as it did on the water. It would turn over for about a second then stop. Over and over I did this until I felt that I met the 10 sec turn over the shop manual wanted. When the engine stopped turning over I could hear the starter continuing to turn until I let go of the start button. Each time was the same thing. I even had my friend that was there take a listen to verify it was the starter that was continuing to spin and not the fuel pump. The next day I went to show my brother that I could imitate the problem I was having on the lake and it turned over normal. Over and over again I was able to turn the engine over normally for as long as I wanted. The only thing I can think of is the overruning clutch might of benefitted from the clean oil to make it work better.

My RXP was also showing a maint light so I took it to the dealer to have it cleared. It showed a P0513 (Incorrect DESS key)occurred 10 times and a P1680(Communication problem detected by MPEM). He cleared the codes and reset the maint light.

So those are the only two things I did. My RXP didn't act up sat, sun, mon of this last holiday weekend.:hurray:

Another thing I found interesting........I've read that when other people change their oil they are only able to get about 3qts. of oil out. I was able to get 4.8-4.9qts out by following the shop manuals instructions.

:cheers:
David

 

[Michael211_2000]

You really need to change the engine oil AND filter (and spark plugs) at least 1 time per year, even if you didn't put a lot of hours on it. Oil breaks down over time and also accumulates moisture which condenses inside the engine crankcase.

You got more quarts of oil out of it because you followed the shop manual instructions to a T... most people don't do the WOT cranking to get all the oil into the bottom of the engine case where it can be sucked out. There are alot of places inside the 4TEC engine where oil accumulates (the PTO assembly area for 1) and doesn't flow back into the bottom of the engine case when you shut the engine off. The WOT cranking moves those pools of oil out of their pools and back into the bottom of the case where you can suck it out.

Regards!

- Michael

 

[Coastiejoe]

Interesting thread....

I swear I read all the posts just to keep on top of things... LOL

 

[Dick Berg]

Starting Problem

David - Very interesting findings.
From what little I know, Michael is correct that the oil, oil filter and spark plugs should be changed every year. The dealer has a kit with all of the above parts.
I'm still dealing with my intermittent starting issue.
I think over the winter, I'll replace the starter motor. As a minimum, I'll pull it and take it to a place to have them check it out, as you did.
Anyway, very glad to hear of your success.

Regards,
Dick