Replacement engine shopping

[adamsbj123]

I am shopping for a replacement engine 787 for my 99 gtx rfi. My research so far leads me to believe that I basically have 3 choices. SBT wants 1299.00, Fullbore wants 1199.00, SES wants 899.00. All claim to be premium engines with 2 year no fault warranties. I know SBT is the big dog with engines on the shelf ready to ship but they are also the most expensive. Oh they will also include a girly calendar and video. The 2 other shops rebuild the engine that you send therfore a longer turnaround time. The 2 smaller guys claim that SBT engines have milled heads to decrease compression and make the engines last longer and most likely to reduce warranty claims. Is this true? I have alot more time than I do money. I have read complaints about SES regarding turnaround time. But to save $400 I can wait. SES is also currently offering free return shipping which will save an additional $50. I have not heard anything about Fullbore. I would like any thoughts or advice. Thanks.

 

[Guest_User]

I am shopping for a replacement engine 787 for my 99 gtx rfi. My research so far leads me to believe that I basically have 3 choices. SBT wants 1299.00, Fullbore wants 1199.00, SES wants 899.00. All claim to be premium engines with 2 year no fault warranties. I know SBT is the big dog with engines on the shelf ready to ship but they are also the most expensive. Oh they will also include a girly calendar and video. The 2 other shops rebuild the engine that you send therfore a longer turnaround time. The 2 smaller guys claim that SBT engines have milled heads to decrease compression and make the engines last longer and most likely to reduce warranty claims. Is this true? I have alot more time than I do money. I have read complaints about SES regarding turnaround time. But to save $400 I can wait. SES is also currently offering free return shipping which will save an additional $50. I have not heard anything about Fullbore. I would like any thoughts or advice. Thanks.

SBT also has the standard engine package with one year warranty...for less money. and you`ll need gaskets/seals/kit...
Milled heads to lower compression, not here and I have 2 of them... Their customer service is outstanding!
IF you have excellent reusable parts, then some qualified shops can perform a good rebuild. if some of your core is bad enough ie cracks or salt water corrosion, the there will be a core fee or you`ll be looking for these parts to reuse or for cores.
Look into exactly what you are getting with other companies. so you can make an apples to apples assessment.
BUT SBT has my vote.:thumbsup:

 

[adamsbj123]

Everywhere I look for info. about engines I see something about SBT engines and the milled heads issue. Several engine shops have statements on their websites that they dont take SBT cores because of this issue. One shop states that if you want your SBT engine rebuilt to OEM compression you must provide a new head and squish band. ?????

 

[Guest_User]

Everywhere I look for info. about engines I see something about SBT engines and the milled heads issue. Several engine shops have statements on their websites that they dont take SBT cores because of this issue. One shop states that if you want your SBT engine rebuilt to OEM compression you must provide a new head and squish band. ?????

I don`t know... you`d have to call them and ask for sure... it`s possible to think they might true a surface for sealing purposes, but pretty sure it`s in spec...

 

[Spimothy Leary]

are you sure your engine is 100% toast ?
perhaps a local rebuild reusing your good parts makes sense, no warranty, but financial savings.

 

[adamsbj123]

I lost compression in the mag side cylinder. I found the piston in pieces and metal chunks in the bottom end. I was told that the cause was most likely from detonation due to leaking crank seals causing a lean run. It is rfi so no adjustments. The ski has low hours but it is thirteen years old. I priced parts for a complete rebuild and it makes more sense to pay a shop to do it and get a warranty.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

The engine that came in my 02 XP (used) had a shaved head. My Local engine guy wouldn't use it.

I used SES for 3 951 engines. Turn around was pushing 3-4 weeks. ALL 3 engines pull hard and hit 6850-7000 wide open. (spec for 951).

When I was having issues, Tom from SES took the time to work with me to figure them out.

I chose them on price and after talking to Tom. I was more than impressed with their work.

As for SBT shaving heads, I've heard that, however, would someone just CALL them and find out?

I don't like speculation.

 

[Thumper3322]

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by shaved heads?

All I know is my sbt is pulling hard and running awesome!

 

[racerxxx]

I see alot of engines being replaced on here and I've only been on for roughly a week or so. I had the one engine in my Speedster done a few times and all three times it burned down the MAG piston. So on the fourth time I did the rebuild. I lost trust in everyone. The only reason I paid to have it done in the first place was money was easy to come by at that time and I was working a lot of hours. I'm a service engineer by trade---I fix machinery for a living and am mechanically inclined, so I wasn't afraid to rebuild the engine at all. Now with kids, money isn't as easy to come by and my influx for toys has gotten worse. I could be on "My Strange Addiction". If gas is required to run it--I'm into it.

Here's my twist on the whole remanufactred engine VS. build your own. This is based off you have all the proper tools, manuals etc.....

I'll preface this by saying that by know means am I bashing SBT, Fullbore or SES. I know SBT, Full bore, and SES are an alternative but honestly if you shop wisely you can put together an engine with OEM parts for close to the same price or cheaper. The most expensive part to the engine is the crank. I'll only use OEM when it comes to that-PERIOD. I just bought one for my build for only $75 bucks more than an SBT crank and I know I'm getting top notch name brand bearings and seals from Bombardier. I see sooooooooo many places that will not accept an SBT crank as a core---because it's welded after it's trued. And if your crank is good you can subtract that from the cost of the rebuild. So just doing a top end is dirt cheap. You need to determine what caused the failure in the first place.

You can do a 787 Carb'd engine all OEM rebuild (reman OEM crank, new OEM pistons(standard bore OR first over size), OEM wrist pins, OEM wrist pin bearings, OEM Circlips, OEM RAVE boots(green), OEM full engine gasket set, for just under $790.66. A standard SBT 787 is $845. Remember that is all OEM parts, no aftermarket. SBT is not using OEM parts. The bore job will probably run you $45 per hole ($90 for both) so you'll be over the price of an SBT engine. But you'll also know that you have a stout engine when your done all with OEM parts.


There are a lot of special tools you'll need that may put you over the edge, PTO removal tool, Torque wrench, seal drivers, and a block off plate pressure testing. Now, if you like to gamble you can skip the pressure test, I for one will not as that is where I found why the last three rebuilds failed--there was an air leak at the base of MAG cylinder, so I assume the last two places who rebuilt the engine NEVER pressure tested it. Also, if you break a screw, your screwed, you'll have to pay to have that taken out, adding more to the cost. There definitely are pluses and minuses to both sides and ultimately you need to make the decision. If you lived near me I'd be happy to help.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by shaved heads?

All I know is my sbt is pulling hard and running awesome!

Page 63 of the 1999 SEA-DOO Racing Handbook:

"Increasing Compression Ratio
To increase compression you must mill the head
3 millimeters from the plain surface and rework
the squish area to a diameter of 83 millimeters
with an inclination of 14 degrees."

However, from the text I'm not sure if that's the 787 or 951, also when shaving the head on the 951 you lose the 'lip' area of the head, reducing the ability of the head to seal to the block....

All I know is, it's not OEM spec. It's modified. Also, the Racing Manual says w/a shaved head in that fashion, that "THIS MODIFICATION REQUIRES THE USE OF
HIGH OCTANE RACE FUEL!" (and yes, the manual has that in ALL CAPS).

As for RacerXXX rebuilding his engines, that's good, logical, and if you have the skill set, go for it, the only drawback I see is the warranty. When one from a place with a no fault fails (even if it's YOUR oil pump or YOU ran it lean)... they will replace it!

 

[Thumper3322]

Ok... People are saying sbt shave to reduce compression.... What you wrote states increases compression, and therefore more rpm/power right?!

Also, the shaving head is the top casing above the piston heads that seals to the cylinders right?


As for building your own... I agree with above... NO WARRANTY.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

I don't honestly know, I'm not that much of an expert on modifying the engines. Above is not my words, it is from the racing manual.

Everything but the prop and reeds is stock on my ski. Stock seems to run great 99.9% of the time. Adding power to me means reducing the gas and go, and I'm not doing that. But that's another discussion.

As for the warranty, I LOVE ME some warranty...

Would someone just CALL SBT or, preferably email them and ask if they shave the 951 head. or any head? and WHY.

 

[racerxxx]

Yes as STS stated, but you also need to machine the squish too as stated. Perhaps SBT is putting thickest base gasket on which is raising the squish higher, resulting in a slight loss in power(probably not noticeable to some). There is nothing wrong with doing it and being safe for sure.

And yes, building your own has no warranty--- a very LARGE factor for sure. But the reward to me is worth it, but not to others--I totally understand. I get goose bumps on the first fire of a new mill, it's an adrenaline rush that never gets old, and no better satisfaction season after season knowing I did it. And I know it makes my father proud knowing he gave me the skill set I have--he loves when I finish a new project. Now I get to do that with my son. Which ever route you take just remember to have fun, take your time and pay attention. If SBT has them sitting there, I'd say go there cause there's still time left in the season. The premium you might pay, will be paid back on your first ride!

 

[KyleB]

I can't speak about the other two but I have been VERY happy with my Full Bore engine done this past winter. As I mentioned on another thread I suppose it really depends on who you feel comfortable with. I checked into all three and settled with FB because the owner and I had some good Mojo on the phone when I talked with him about the 787...so far so good. Good luck. :cheers:

 

[Spimothy Leary]

I see alot of engines being replaced on here and I've only been on for roughly a week or so. I had the one engine in my Speedster done a few times and all three times it burned down the MAG piston. So on the fourth time I did the rebuild. I lost trust in everyone. The only reason I paid to have it done in the first place was money was easy to come by at that time and I was working a lot of hours. I'm a service engineer by trade---I fix machinery for a living and am mechanically inclined, so I wasn't afraid to rebuild the engine at all. Now with kids, money isn't as easy to come by and my influx for toys has gotten worse. I could be on "My Strange Addiction". If gas is required to run it--I'm into it.

Here's my twist on the whole remanufactred engine VS. build your own. This is based off you have all the proper tools, manuals etc.....

I'll preface this by saying that by know means am I bashing SBT, Fullbore or SES. I know SBT, Full bore, and SES are an alternative but honestly if you shop wisely you can put together an engine with OEM parts for close to the same price or cheaper. The most expensive part to the engine is the crank. I'll only use OEM when it comes to that-PERIOD. I just bought one for my build for only $75 bucks more than an SBT crank and I know I'm getting top notch name brand bearings and seals from Bombardier. I see sooooooooo many places that will not accept an SBT crank as a core---because it's welded after it's trued. And if your crank is good you can subtract that from the cost of the rebuild. So just doing a top end is dirt cheap. You need to determine what caused the failure in the first place.

You can do a 787 Carb'd engine all OEM rebuild (reman OEM crank, new OEM pistons(standard bore OR first over size), OEM wrist pins, OEM wrist pin bearings, OEM Circlips, OEM RAVE boots(green), OEM full engine gasket set, for just under $790.66. A standard SBT 787 is $845. Remember that is all OEM parts, no aftermarket. SBT is not using OEM parts. The bore job will probably run you $45 per hole ($90 for both) so you'll be over the price of an SBT engine. But you'll also know that you have a stout engine when your done all with OEM parts.


There are a lot of special tools you'll need that may put you over the edge, PTO removal tool, Torque wrench, seal drivers, and a block off plate pressure testing. Now, if you like to gamble you can skip the pressure test, I for one will not as that is where I found why the last three rebuilds failed--there was an air leak at the base of MAG cylinder, so I assume the last two places who rebuilt the engine NEVER pressure tested it. Also, if you break a screw, your screwed, you'll have to pay to have that taken out, adding more to the cost. There definitely are pluses and minuses to both sides and ultimately you need to make the decision. If you lived near me I'd be happy to help.

excellent post ! very well written.

Although, i'd stress something. The time involved is a big factor as well, tear down, clean and rebuild takes many hours, even if you know what your doing, and have easy access to the right stuff, for a first timer, you can easily double the time spent.

i also prefer the build your own version, BUT I have access to a quality tuner who can build in his sleep, a full shop with air tools, blast cabinet, stands and benches built with pwc's in mind, not to mention crates of parts that i've stashed. If I didn't have access to the tools and a super talented and helpful friend, i'd be at the mercy of the shops as well.

sooo much depends on the skill level of the DIY guy.

 

[Axkiker]

Im no expert but ive done my fair share of automotive engines. If you shave the head you will decrease the size of the combustion chamber which in turn will increase compression.

This should equate for the need to use higher octane fuel and probably a power gain. I cant see how this would cut down on warrenty work????

 

[adamsbj123]

The term "shaving the head" is probably not correct in this situation. Anytime a head is removed from any engine it is prudent to have the head "surfaced" in order to seal correctly. Shaving a head is a term typically used to modify and increase performance. The issue with SBT according to some websites is that they "mill the combustion chambers resulting in lower compression". I personally do not know if this is true. I am just trying to gather information to make an informed decision.

 

[adamsbj123]

Thank you to everyone for the info. and advice. I shipped my engine to SES for the premium rebuild with a 2 year warranty. $899 with free return shipping. I will post later to let you know how it goes. In Seattle so it will likely be next May or June before I get it back in the water.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

The term "shaving the head" is probably not correct in this situation. Anytime a head is removed from any engine it is prudent to have the head "surfaced" in order to seal correctly. Shaving a head is a term typically used to modify and increase performance. The issue with SBT according to some websites is that they "mill the combustion chambers resulting in lower compression". I personally do not know if this is true. I am just trying to gather information to make an informed decision.

Sounds logical, but at this point is speculation

Let us know how you make out. Last time I shipped one UPS gave me shit about insuring it for $1,000 since 'they didn't package it'... this was the FOURTH one I shipped! they never complained before. I said and how would YOU have packaged it? they said a double box? IT'S ALMOST 90 POUNDS! freaking morons...

that sounds logical, but we'd need someone to call them...

 

[adamsbj123]

I followed the packing instructions on the SES website using a rubbermaid 18 gallon container with lid. I took it to the local UPS store. It weighed 90 pounds. I insured it for $1000. It was $110 from Seattle to SES. They did not bitch in fact they were trying to get me to buy more insurance.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

Mine is usually $75 to ship it all of 110 miles....

 

[Spimothy Leary]

I followed the packing instructions on the SES website using a rubbermaid 18 gallon container with lid. I took it to the local UPS store. It weighed 90 pounds. I insured it for $1000. It was $110 from Seattle to SES. They did not bitch in fact they were trying to get me to buy more insurance.

Mine is usually $75 to ship it all of 110 miles....

do you guys use the actual ups store? or a pack & ship. i've never actually been to a ups store, wasn't sure if they charge the exact same rates that I get with my personal account, and obviously pack & ship upcharges like 20%.

I have usps/and ups accounts, (and fedx too but i never use it) usps gets all my flat rate. and generally ups gets my oversized and heavy stuff and i weigh it at home then print the label and drop it off at the pack & ship guy. On average it comes out pretty dam close to a buck a pound with ups.

 

[racerxxx]

do you guys use the actual ups store? or a pack & ship. i've never actually been to a ups store, wasn't sure if they charge the exact same rates that I get with my personal account, and obviously pack & ship upcharges like 20%.

I have usps/and ups accounts, (and fedx too but i never use it) usps gets all my flat rate. and generally ups gets my oversized and heavy stuff and i weigh it at home then print the label and drop it off at the pack & ship guy. On average it comes out pretty dam close to a buck a pound with ups.

UPS stores are independently owned--they can charge what they like, and some will mug you. Even if you plan on shipping periodically, I THINK it's free for an "online" UPS account. Meaning you can print your label at home and drop your stuff off at the local UPS store, find a driver or find a UPS drop box. We use to have UPS daily pick up at work, then they started monkeying around and got to be like Fedex and scheduled pick ups. So we finally opted out of everything but now we either just "find" our driver, put it in the UPS box at the end of our street, or I run the big stuff to the UPS store. Either way, I still prefer UPS.

 

[Spimothy Leary]

UPS stores are independently owned--they can charge what they like, and some will mug you. Even if you plan on shipping periodically, I THINK it's free for an "online" UPS account. Meaning you can print your label at home and drop your stuff off at the local UPS store, find a driver or find a UPS drop box. We use to have UPS daily pick up at work, then they started monkeying around and got to be like Fedex and scheduled pick ups. So we finally opted out of everything but now we either just "find" our driver, put it in the UPS box at the end of our street, or I run the big stuff to the UPS store. Either way, I still prefer UPS.

yes, thats what I do as well, and the online labeling actually is pretty dam easy, well designed for both ups and usps IMO, i'll still stick with the flat rates on small part shipping for simplicity its really nice to know ahead of time the price and you can't beat the free boxes they are pretty sturdy, for shipping an engine, the rubber tubs do work well, i've packed two that way. note: usps also sends free boxes to your home, and they have other sized boxes that aren't in all the post office locations, there are two flat/wide usps flat rates that work very well for some of the wide stuff. I always felt weird shipping a kellogs cereal box or a water jug box (those are great btw)

one of these days we need to create a sticky on parts shipping. I think many of us could contribute some great idea's that might help many people out by eliminating the confusion. (but honestly its really as simple as signing up for the 3 major shippers online and finding a good sources for boxes and packing material.) shipping is really really simple once you do it about a dozen times

for boxes the local grocery is a great source, for packing material i ordered bulk bubble wrap, its amazingly inexpensive when you order a few hundred feet of it and i also dilligently save all the misc packing material that I get with stuff I order.

 

[racerxxx]

The thing about the USPS flat rate--the boxes are not free per say. For instance, I manufacture dead pedals for 08-12 Chrysler and Dodge minivans and also the 09-12 VW Routan Minivan(based off the Chrysler Dodge platform). I basically break even as I never intended to do it to make money, but more or less supply a part that no aftermarket company makes. So anyway, for me to do flat rate is $10.90 to fit it in the correct size box. But I can go to Walmart and buy a box that is perfect in size for $.48 cents. Then print an address label, go to the post office and ship the exact same item for as low as $5.30. You mean to tell me that the USPS box is worth $5.60??? To me that is just nuts. I just want to try to save everyone cash along the way. Sorry not trying to steer the thread off track.