Project Brother-In-Law: 2000 GTX DI
- Thread starter rjcress
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SabrToothSqrl
Well-Known Member
a public flogging you say? 
lol
lol
rjcress
Active Member
rjcress
Active Member
Yesterday after work I pulled the GTX to the local lake for testing with the jet pump on and the correct battery.
I ordered the battery online for in-store pickup... the battery that STS linked to. Advance Auto is on the way to the lake, so it would work out perfectly.
What I didn't realize is that the battery comes with the acid in 2 jugs, so you have to first fill the cells, then trickle charge it.
That completely wrecked my plan to test the GTX. I thought about getting one of the AGM batteries that is already charged and ready to go, but it cost nearly twice as much and they couldn't use the online coupon in the store... and I was running out of time before the light rain would end and the approaching storm would hit.
So I opted to take the battery I ordered and see if putting the jet pump on was enough to solve the issue. ie. still running on the lawn tractor battery.
The guy at the marina was nice and let me back the trailer in and run it on the trailer for a few minutes without the $7 launch fee... probably since I was the only one dumb enough to be out there in the rain.
Really not much different than the prior result.
It starts fine. Surges a bit while idling at around 1,400 RPM. Runs a bit smoother up to about 3k RPM, but still surges a bit. Revs fine past about 3k RPM. Dies when I let off of the throttle fast, or even sort of fast. I was holding out hope that even on the wrong battery, the load of running in the water with the pump on would solve the issue. At least I now know that it wasn't the lack of jet pump and/or water resistance that caused my issue.
I filled the new battery last night and put it on my trickle charger. Extra frustrated that the charge chart only shows times for down to a 1A charger (14 hours). Mine is a 500ma, so I have to guess it will take around twice as long... and may not be fully charged when we are ready to leave for the lake this evening. Found my old 2A trickle charger from my motorcycle this morning, but it is DOA.
I wonder if I can switch to the normal charger (I think it is a 10A charger) near the end of the charge cycle to top it off, or if that would cause a problem with the initial charge.
Anyhow, I am trying to be optimistic that the new battery will solve the problem, but I can't get my head around how it would. So I expect that I'll need to start troubleshooting.
The most logical place to start seems like it would be cleaning the injectors. I'll have to look up how to do that.
OH! I had a brain fart and just remembered something... what should my compression readings have been when I first installed the engine, but before I even installed plugs and fired it up the first time? I'm guessing that compression would be lower than normal until it has been broken in, as the rings haven't seated at all yet. I put maybe 5 or 10 drops of oil in each cylinder before I installed it and hand-spun it so that the cylinder walls weren't completely dry. Before installing the spark plugs and before the engine had been started even one time I tested compression and got about 91 on each cylinder. That seemed low to me, I chalked it up to having not been broken-in at all and moved on. When it fired up instantly on the first try I think I mentally discarded that info, as I literally didn't remember that I even did the test until this morning. I guess that is what I get for staying up past 4am working on the GTX.
I am dying to test it again since it has been run for a few minutes and see what it says, but I left the compression tester on the Challenger (along with most of my metric tools, doh!) at the lake.
As I typed the above paragraph I was thinking of my 787 engine at about 150 PSI, and that 91 seemed low. I just searched and see that 120 is considered good for the 951 DI.
Starting to worry that there may be bigger issues here.
I soooooo do not want to take that engine out.
Not sure if it is worth pulling the GTX 2 hours to the lake tonight or not. ugh:ack:
I ordered the battery online for in-store pickup... the battery that STS linked to. Advance Auto is on the way to the lake, so it would work out perfectly.
What I didn't realize is that the battery comes with the acid in 2 jugs, so you have to first fill the cells, then trickle charge it.
That completely wrecked my plan to test the GTX. I thought about getting one of the AGM batteries that is already charged and ready to go, but it cost nearly twice as much and they couldn't use the online coupon in the store... and I was running out of time before the light rain would end and the approaching storm would hit.
So I opted to take the battery I ordered and see if putting the jet pump on was enough to solve the issue. ie. still running on the lawn tractor battery.
The guy at the marina was nice and let me back the trailer in and run it on the trailer for a few minutes without the $7 launch fee... probably since I was the only one dumb enough to be out there in the rain.
Really not much different than the prior result.
It starts fine. Surges a bit while idling at around 1,400 RPM. Runs a bit smoother up to about 3k RPM, but still surges a bit. Revs fine past about 3k RPM. Dies when I let off of the throttle fast, or even sort of fast. I was holding out hope that even on the wrong battery, the load of running in the water with the pump on would solve the issue. At least I now know that it wasn't the lack of jet pump and/or water resistance that caused my issue.
I filled the new battery last night and put it on my trickle charger. Extra frustrated that the charge chart only shows times for down to a 1A charger (14 hours). Mine is a 500ma, so I have to guess it will take around twice as long... and may not be fully charged when we are ready to leave for the lake this evening. Found my old 2A trickle charger from my motorcycle this morning, but it is DOA.
I wonder if I can switch to the normal charger (I think it is a 10A charger) near the end of the charge cycle to top it off, or if that would cause a problem with the initial charge.
Anyhow, I am trying to be optimistic that the new battery will solve the problem, but I can't get my head around how it would. So I expect that I'll need to start troubleshooting.
The most logical place to start seems like it would be cleaning the injectors. I'll have to look up how to do that.
OH! I had a brain fart and just remembered something... what should my compression readings have been when I first installed the engine, but before I even installed plugs and fired it up the first time? I'm guessing that compression would be lower than normal until it has been broken in, as the rings haven't seated at all yet. I put maybe 5 or 10 drops of oil in each cylinder before I installed it and hand-spun it so that the cylinder walls weren't completely dry. Before installing the spark plugs and before the engine had been started even one time I tested compression and got about 91 on each cylinder. That seemed low to me, I chalked it up to having not been broken-in at all and moved on. When it fired up instantly on the first try I think I mentally discarded that info, as I literally didn't remember that I even did the test until this morning. I guess that is what I get for staying up past 4am working on the GTX.
I am dying to test it again since it has been run for a few minutes and see what it says, but I left the compression tester on the Challenger (along with most of my metric tools, doh!) at the lake.
As I typed the above paragraph I was thinking of my 787 engine at about 150 PSI, and that 91 seemed low. I just searched and see that 120 is considered good for the 951 DI.
Starting to worry that there may be bigger issues here.
I soooooo do not want to take that engine out.
Not sure if it is worth pulling the GTX 2 hours to the lake tonight or not. ugh:ack:
SabrToothSqrl
Well-Known Member
Sorry for the luck, yes that battery does not come 'assembled', however I've added acid to them, gotten a ski to start after 20 min of it sitting, which will then charge the battery. I've also thrown them on 10A chargers right after adding acid.
lol acid.
yes 91 is low, and yes, I personally compression test engines before they go in the hull.
However, since both cylinders are 91, that's the important factor.
Do you have another gauge? my skis only ever show as 100, however both run amazing. and one has a factory 30 hours on it. So for me, my guage, etc, 100 is good to go. Long as the 2 are within 10% of each other.
The only remaining issue; since you didn't take the ski apart, I believe is on the RFI and DI skis, the dealer has to adjust the throttle setup using the BUDS system. On the carb, there is no computer for the throttle.
your erratic performance and issues may be because the computer is getting incorrect data.
my buddies RFI had an air leak, so it was constantly running rich, the computer thought there was X amount of air, when it should have been Y, and did what it's supposed to do... adjust the fuel accordingly.
The DI ski's are nice.. when they run. at 13 years + old, diagnosing and fixing the computer related parts can quickly become a cost issue...
there are also reports of the rectifier failing and causing issues.
IF you have a 100% charged battery, and remove the rectifier from the system, the ski's issues should resolve (if it's the issue). the problem then being, that eventually, since the ski is not charging the battery, the engine will stop when the battery is dead... so you can do this for a test, which should give you 10-30 min of run time w/out a charging circuit.
DO NOT remove the battery from a running ski, attempting to test the charging circuit. Or monkeys will come to your house in your sleep and beat you with a crow bar. Or more likey, something will break.
I will note that it's a lead-acid battery and not pre-filled in my 951 write up.
lol acid.
yes 91 is low, and yes, I personally compression test engines before they go in the hull.
However, since both cylinders are 91, that's the important factor.
Do you have another gauge? my skis only ever show as 100, however both run amazing. and one has a factory 30 hours on it. So for me, my guage, etc, 100 is good to go. Long as the 2 are within 10% of each other.
The only remaining issue; since you didn't take the ski apart, I believe is on the RFI and DI skis, the dealer has to adjust the throttle setup using the BUDS system. On the carb, there is no computer for the throttle.
your erratic performance and issues may be because the computer is getting incorrect data.
my buddies RFI had an air leak, so it was constantly running rich, the computer thought there was X amount of air, when it should have been Y, and did what it's supposed to do... adjust the fuel accordingly.
The DI ski's are nice.. when they run. at 13 years + old, diagnosing and fixing the computer related parts can quickly become a cost issue...
there are also reports of the rectifier failing and causing issues.
IF you have a 100% charged battery, and remove the rectifier from the system, the ski's issues should resolve (if it's the issue). the problem then being, that eventually, since the ski is not charging the battery, the engine will stop when the battery is dead... so you can do this for a test, which should give you 10-30 min of run time w/out a charging circuit.
DO NOT remove the battery from a running ski, attempting to test the charging circuit. Or monkeys will come to your house in your sleep and beat you with a crow bar. Or more likey, something will break.
I will note that it's a lead-acid battery and not pre-filled in my 951 write up.
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rjcress
Active Member
I don't have another compression gauge.
I will test the Challenger and the GTX as soon as I can. If the challenger is still reading over 140 (and I sure hope it is), then I think I can trust the gauge. I'm hoping that when i test it again, that the numbers look normal and that I had just done something wrong on the first test. Not optimistic, but hoping.
I'll spray some soapy water on the air lines to see if I can find a leak.
If I can't sort this out soon, then I'll have to find someone with BUDS to diagnose.
Isn't there some sort of reader that non-dealers can buy?
Is there a way to check MPEM fault codes without BUDS?
I will test the Challenger and the GTX as soon as I can. If the challenger is still reading over 140 (and I sure hope it is), then I think I can trust the gauge. I'm hoping that when i test it again, that the numbers look normal and that I had just done something wrong on the first test. Not optimistic, but hoping.
I'll spray some soapy water on the air lines to see if I can find a leak.
If I can't sort this out soon, then I'll have to find someone with BUDS to diagnose.
Isn't there some sort of reader that non-dealers can buy?
Is there a way to check MPEM fault codes without BUDS?
rjcress
Active Member
I put the new battery on the higher amp charger this afternoon and it showed as fully charged (trickle charger gave no indication and both of my voltmeters were at the lake on the other boats).
Installed the new battery and test ran it on the hose. Same behavior as before.
I towed the GTX to the lake anyway, as I may be here for the better part of a week and may actually have some time to start diagnosing. I'll put it in the water in the morning and see if anything is different.
I also filled the gas tank with fresh 93 octane gas. Already had 5 gallons of fresh gas, but I think it was 87 octane.
Even just swapping the batteries was a pain because of the tight space.
I loved this GTX when it worked. Now that I have been working on it, I'm starting to hate it.
With all of the electronic controls I'm seriously struggling to sort out where to start on troubleshooting. The symptoms I'm seeing are listed in the troubleshooting section of the FSM referencing most of the systems as possible causes. I guess I need to start with the ones that I have the tools to diagnose. If those don't solve it, then get the tools to diagnose the most likely other potential causes. I suspect that having someone run a diagnostic report on the MPEM would help this process. I find it insanely annoying that I can't buy a code reader. I have one for my cars and it is awesome. And I swear, the bottom of the engine bay is a magnet for nuts, washers, screws, and tools... which are insanely difficult to retrieve without taking things apart.
When I get this sorted out I think I'll stick with something like my Challenger that has simpler systems and room to work in the engine bay.
Installed the new battery and test ran it on the hose. Same behavior as before.
I towed the GTX to the lake anyway, as I may be here for the better part of a week and may actually have some time to start diagnosing. I'll put it in the water in the morning and see if anything is different.
I also filled the gas tank with fresh 93 octane gas. Already had 5 gallons of fresh gas, but I think it was 87 octane.
Even just swapping the batteries was a pain because of the tight space.
I loved this GTX when it worked. Now that I have been working on it, I'm starting to hate it.
With all of the electronic controls I'm seriously struggling to sort out where to start on troubleshooting. The symptoms I'm seeing are listed in the troubleshooting section of the FSM referencing most of the systems as possible causes. I guess I need to start with the ones that I have the tools to diagnose. If those don't solve it, then get the tools to diagnose the most likely other potential causes. I suspect that having someone run a diagnostic report on the MPEM would help this process. I find it insanely annoying that I can't buy a code reader. I have one for my cars and it is awesome. And I swear, the bottom of the engine bay is a magnet for nuts, washers, screws, and tools... which are insanely difficult to retrieve without taking things apart.
When I get this sorted out I think I'll stick with something like my Challenger that has simpler systems and room to work in the engine bay.
SabrToothSqrl
Well-Known Member
if you keep wrenching, we will keep trying to help!
You test the compression at WOT. That tells the computer to shut off the fuel pump as well.
So, it won't run at all in the water? 1/2 throttle? Nothing?
You test the compression at WOT. That tells the computer to shut off the fuel pump as well.
So, it won't run at all in the water? 1/2 throttle? Nothing?
rjcress
Active Member
I'll put it in the water in the morning to try with the new battery and fresh, higher octane gas... but yesterday it would run rough below about 3k RPM, and would die when I let off the throttle quickly.
Well... assuming it isn't storming like a mo-fo, I'll put it in the water in the morning. If the nasty stuff over Georgia has worked it's way up here by morning, then I'll try to sleep in.
Oh, and I should be able to test compression tomorrow as well. Just have to get the gauge off of the Challenger.
Well... assuming it isn't storming like a mo-fo, I'll put it in the water in the morning. If the nasty stuff over Georgia has worked it's way up here by morning, then I'll try to sleep in.
Oh, and I should be able to test compression tomorrow as well. Just have to get the gauge off of the Challenger.
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rjcress
Active Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ileVp2mh34w&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Idling rough at the dock, then dying
Idling rough at the dock, then dying
rjcress
Active Member
Put it in the water this morning and rode 150 yards to the dock. Tied it up and got the voltmeter to test the rectifier. Ran at the dock up to 7k rpm and saw a max of 13.69 volts. It peaked around 4500 RPM and voltage dropped slightly at higher RPMs, with a reading around 13.59 at 6k rpm.
So, looks like the rectifier is working.
Also started it for my Father a bit later, as he hasn't seen it running in years. Removed the back seat to see if any water had leaked in since it was sitting in the water for a couple of hours. No water, but a half inch of fresh oil.
Gotta see if I can figure out where it is coming from.
Likely a hose has come loose or has a hole. Just not sure how I can find it when I can't see most of the hoses when it is running, and the leaking hose may not leak when it isn't running.
Regardless, I'll get the mirror and start looking in the next day or two.
So, looks like the rectifier is working.
Also started it for my Father a bit later, as he hasn't seen it running in years. Removed the back seat to see if any water had leaked in since it was sitting in the water for a couple of hours. No water, but a half inch of fresh oil.
Gotta see if I can figure out where it is coming from.
Likely a hose has come loose or has a hole. Just not sure how I can find it when I can't see most of the hoses when it is running, and the leaking hose may not leak when it isn't running.
Regardless, I'll get the mirror and start looking in the next day or two.
jhjesse
Well-Known Member
Check the oil tank seam first. Good chance you will find it cracked. I know of several 2000 to 2002 models that had a bad tank, mine as well.
If you have good fuel pressure, air pressure, spark and rectifier tests good, then maybe the injectors need a good cleaning since it has sat for a long time.
Hope this helps.
If you have good fuel pressure, air pressure, spark and rectifier tests good, then maybe the injectors need a good cleaning since it has sat for a long time.
Hope this helps.
rjcress
Active Member
Since we have been away from the marina the past few days I had no chance to do anything with the GTX until I put it on the trailer yesterday and pulled it to my parent's house... a few miles away on the same lake. The oil tank was EMPTY!
After I drained and sprayed the oil out of the engine bay I lubed up my hand and squeezed it between the pipe and the head. I was trying to reach the bottom of the oil pump to see if the oil feed hose had come loose. I couldn't quite reach it. However, when my hand brushed against the oil pump something didn't feel right. Turns out the bleeder screw had wiggled loose.
I was baffled,
stupified,
flabergasted,
befuddled!
I had the bleeder screw on the Challenger back itself out a month or so prior and was extra careful to be sure that the bleeder screw was in tight on the GTX. I guess I'm going to have to start sealing the screw with fingernail polish after it is bled, as it doesn't seem to matter how snug it is... it can still vibrate loose.
I'm working remotely now... for the next 50 minutes or so. Then I'll have about 4 hours to pack up the kids, get the Challenger on the trailer, have dinner, and get ready to hit the road for home around 9pm. I'm hoping that I can get everything else done quickly enough that I have time to put the little bit of XPSII that I have left in the tank, bleed the tube and oil injection lines, secure the bleeder screw and get the GTX back in the water to see if that fixes the problem.
I sure hope so!
Will have to remember to put a string on the wrench first, as I know I'll drop it and won't be able to get it back out without taking the pipe off.
After I drained and sprayed the oil out of the engine bay I lubed up my hand and squeezed it between the pipe and the head. I was trying to reach the bottom of the oil pump to see if the oil feed hose had come loose. I couldn't quite reach it. However, when my hand brushed against the oil pump something didn't feel right. Turns out the bleeder screw had wiggled loose.
I was baffled,
stupified,
flabergasted,
befuddled!
I had the bleeder screw on the Challenger back itself out a month or so prior and was extra careful to be sure that the bleeder screw was in tight on the GTX. I guess I'm going to have to start sealing the screw with fingernail polish after it is bled, as it doesn't seem to matter how snug it is... it can still vibrate loose.
I'm working remotely now... for the next 50 minutes or so. Then I'll have about 4 hours to pack up the kids, get the Challenger on the trailer, have dinner, and get ready to hit the road for home around 9pm. I'm hoping that I can get everything else done quickly enough that I have time to put the little bit of XPSII that I have left in the tank, bleed the tube and oil injection lines, secure the bleeder screw and get the GTX back in the water to see if that fixes the problem.
I sure hope so!
Will have to remember to put a string on the wrench first, as I know I'll drop it and won't be able to get it back out without taking the pipe off.
rjcress
Active Member
after fighting to get the bleed screw tightened for about 45 minutes, my Father came out to see how it was going. After another 20 minutes of suggesting different tools and angles to get to the screw he opened the glove box and said "why don't you just take this out?". Well, dang! Yep, that gave me access, just wish I would have realized that the glove box could be removed sooner.
I put oil in the tank, bled the line, tightened the bleed screw, cleaned the screw with alcohol, then put some red threadlocker on the head to pump mating surface to try to hold the little bugger so it doesn't wiggle loose again. Took out the spark plugs, held the throttle open and cranked the engine until all of the bubbles were out of the oil lines. By the time I was done it was WAY too late to put it in the water to test, so I left the GTX at the lake and drove home.
Got back to the lake last night and put the GTX in the water. Same as before. It starts great, runs great for about 4 seconds, then starts surging...more intensely the longer it runs. Idles in the water at about 1400-1450RPM, but goes higher and lower when it starts surging, then gets slower on the slow part of the surge and eventually dies.
It surges and sputters a bit if I run it at higher than about 45000 RPM, but generally seems to run much better if at about 2400 or more.
Dies when I let off the throttle if it had been running at about 2000 RPM or higher.
So, I put it on the trailer this moring (incidently, it ran great when I got it above about 2400 RPM, I only had a few hundred yards to go from the dock to the ramp, but I got up on plane and it did great. I had to really ease off the throttle slowly to keep it from dying as I approached the dock) and I took it to the SeaDoo shop about 15 miles away so they can check the MPEM for error codes. The shop owner told me that the DI is the bastard child of the SeaDoo line... that the software was never really all that useful and was abandoned before it was fixed... most errors aren't even reported...and that it may not be useful putting it on BUDS.
Told him about my pre-install compression numbers (90ish), history of this GTX, what I had done, and asked for his thoughts on the most efficient way to sort this out. He said that if I left it he would:
-check compression
-check fuel and air pressure
-check the computer for errors & write them down. run it again to see if any of the prior codes re-appear, as they may be worth pursuing.
Chances are, they won't get to it before I have to leave the lake tomorrow, and I won't be back for almost 2 weeks, but I hope to hear something before then.
I put oil in the tank, bled the line, tightened the bleed screw, cleaned the screw with alcohol, then put some red threadlocker on the head to pump mating surface to try to hold the little bugger so it doesn't wiggle loose again. Took out the spark plugs, held the throttle open and cranked the engine until all of the bubbles were out of the oil lines. By the time I was done it was WAY too late to put it in the water to test, so I left the GTX at the lake and drove home.
Got back to the lake last night and put the GTX in the water. Same as before. It starts great, runs great for about 4 seconds, then starts surging...more intensely the longer it runs. Idles in the water at about 1400-1450RPM, but goes higher and lower when it starts surging, then gets slower on the slow part of the surge and eventually dies.
It surges and sputters a bit if I run it at higher than about 45000 RPM, but generally seems to run much better if at about 2400 or more.
Dies when I let off the throttle if it had been running at about 2000 RPM or higher.
So, I put it on the trailer this moring (incidently, it ran great when I got it above about 2400 RPM, I only had a few hundred yards to go from the dock to the ramp, but I got up on plane and it did great. I had to really ease off the throttle slowly to keep it from dying as I approached the dock) and I took it to the SeaDoo shop about 15 miles away so they can check the MPEM for error codes. The shop owner told me that the DI is the bastard child of the SeaDoo line... that the software was never really all that useful and was abandoned before it was fixed... most errors aren't even reported...and that it may not be useful putting it on BUDS.
Told him about my pre-install compression numbers (90ish), history of this GTX, what I had done, and asked for his thoughts on the most efficient way to sort this out. He said that if I left it he would:
-check compression
-check fuel and air pressure
-check the computer for errors & write them down. run it again to see if any of the prior codes re-appear, as they may be worth pursuing.
Chances are, they won't get to it before I have to leave the lake tomorrow, and I won't be back for almost 2 weeks, but I hope to hear something before then.
dan87951
Active Member
There is a guy on another forum that had the same problems as you and it ended up being the "air injectors" that were bad. He replaced them and the ski was running great. Maybe give those a try if their cheap? Hope this helps!
dan87951
Active Member
There is a guy on another forum that had the same problems as you and it ended up being the "air injectors" that were bad. He replaced them and the ski is running great. Maybe give those a try if there cheap? Hope this helps!
rjcress
Active Member
I took the family to Charleston, SC this weekend where we spent the weekend on the USS Yorktown with my son's Cub Scout Pack.
Started to type up a summary, but decided it will be easier to paste in the email I sent to the SeaDoo shop this afternoon.
Here it is:
Don't know when I'll hear back, as the SeaDoo shop is a remote location that is only open on summer weekends. Their main shop is about an hour away, and they didn't pull my GTX back to the main shop at the end of the weekend. They may wait until they get back to the remote shop on Friday to reply.
Regardless, Tom at SES said: 1) I'm covered if there is any issue with the work SES did, 2) he doesn't think that the information that I passed on to him from the SeaDoo shop adds up. For example, he said that BUDS does a ton of valuable things on the DI and questioned that the SeaDoo tech knew what he was doing if he thought BUDS wasn't useful in diagnosing a DI. And he said that if the fuel pump or air compressor weren't operating properly, that the DI would go in to Maintenance mode and there would be error codes. This is along the lines of what I was thinking when I took the GTX to the SeaDoo shop, and the SeaDoo shop owner told me that BUDS would NOT show any indication that either the fuel pump or air compressor were not working, even if they weren't. So... directly contradictory information. I'm going to try to get a 3-way conference call set up so that Tom and talk to the SD tech, with me on the line. Not sure the SD tech will agree to it, but it should be interesting if it happens.
So far, my gut feeling is that the SD tech is less experienced with DIs than Tom, and that the SD tech gets a very low volume of DI machines to work on... so I suspect that Tom is probably more likely to have a clear plan to diagnose and to recognize issues quickly.
Fingers crossed.
Started to type up a summary, but decided it will be easier to paste in the email I sent to the SeaDoo shop this afternoon.
Here it is:
"Thanks for the calls Friday and Sunday about my DI.
I apologize that each time we spoke I was driving down the interstate and the phone connection sometimes made it hard to communicate and I was splitting my attention between driving and talking. With that in mind, I'm not positive that I am clear on what you told me either day.
On Friday I thought that you said the fuel pressure was inconsistent, instead of being steady at 107 psi, like it should. You were thinking of swapping in a different fuel pump to see if that corrected it. Is that correct? Did you swap in a different fuel pump? If so, did it help?
On Sunday I think you said that the compressor was putting out 0 psi at idle, and about 1/2 of the normal pressure at higher RPMs, but there was no mention of fuel pressure or the fuel pump. Does that mean that the fuel pump checked out OK after all?
Since the compressor was rebuilt by SES (seadooengineshop.com) when the engine was rebuilt a few months ago, I spoke to Tom (shop owner) this morning.Tom had questions about how you determined that the compressor wasn't working. I wasn't able to answer those questions. Since a compressor failure would be a warranty repair item, he said that I could either send him the engine, or he could cover you guys replacing the compressor.
I think you also told me Sunday that the compression was 105 PSI on each engine cylinder, instead of the 130 psi that it should be. Tom asked how compression was tested. When I checked compression prior to running the engine the first time, it was 90 PSI. Tom said that is the right number for the way I checked it (remove spark plugs & ground plug wires, put on DESS key, crank while holding throttle wide open). He said that you have to go into Maintenance mode or use BUDS to properly test compression on the DI. I wasn't able to answer any questions about how you tested compression.
I'd like to get Tom on the phone with you, since he will cover any engine related issues as a warranty repair and he wasn't convinced it is the compressor. ie. he said it won't run at all if the compressor is putting out 0 psi at idle.
Also, Tom said that surging is often a clogged fuel filter.
Did you guys bypass the fuel filter to see if that helped?
I believe it has the original fuel filter in it, and it sat from mid-2007 to late 2012 after the engine died.
Since it is due for a new fuel filter anyway, what will it cost to replace the fuel filter?"
I apologize that each time we spoke I was driving down the interstate and the phone connection sometimes made it hard to communicate and I was splitting my attention between driving and talking. With that in mind, I'm not positive that I am clear on what you told me either day.
On Friday I thought that you said the fuel pressure was inconsistent, instead of being steady at 107 psi, like it should. You were thinking of swapping in a different fuel pump to see if that corrected it. Is that correct? Did you swap in a different fuel pump? If so, did it help?
On Sunday I think you said that the compressor was putting out 0 psi at idle, and about 1/2 of the normal pressure at higher RPMs, but there was no mention of fuel pressure or the fuel pump. Does that mean that the fuel pump checked out OK after all?
Since the compressor was rebuilt by SES (seadooengineshop.com) when the engine was rebuilt a few months ago, I spoke to Tom (shop owner) this morning.Tom had questions about how you determined that the compressor wasn't working. I wasn't able to answer those questions. Since a compressor failure would be a warranty repair item, he said that I could either send him the engine, or he could cover you guys replacing the compressor.
I think you also told me Sunday that the compression was 105 PSI on each engine cylinder, instead of the 130 psi that it should be. Tom asked how compression was tested. When I checked compression prior to running the engine the first time, it was 90 PSI. Tom said that is the right number for the way I checked it (remove spark plugs & ground plug wires, put on DESS key, crank while holding throttle wide open). He said that you have to go into Maintenance mode or use BUDS to properly test compression on the DI. I wasn't able to answer any questions about how you tested compression.
I'd like to get Tom on the phone with you, since he will cover any engine related issues as a warranty repair and he wasn't convinced it is the compressor. ie. he said it won't run at all if the compressor is putting out 0 psi at idle.
Also, Tom said that surging is often a clogged fuel filter.
Did you guys bypass the fuel filter to see if that helped?
I believe it has the original fuel filter in it, and it sat from mid-2007 to late 2012 after the engine died.
Since it is due for a new fuel filter anyway, what will it cost to replace the fuel filter?"
Don't know when I'll hear back, as the SeaDoo shop is a remote location that is only open on summer weekends. Their main shop is about an hour away, and they didn't pull my GTX back to the main shop at the end of the weekend. They may wait until they get back to the remote shop on Friday to reply.
Regardless, Tom at SES said: 1) I'm covered if there is any issue with the work SES did, 2) he doesn't think that the information that I passed on to him from the SeaDoo shop adds up. For example, he said that BUDS does a ton of valuable things on the DI and questioned that the SeaDoo tech knew what he was doing if he thought BUDS wasn't useful in diagnosing a DI. And he said that if the fuel pump or air compressor weren't operating properly, that the DI would go in to Maintenance mode and there would be error codes. This is along the lines of what I was thinking when I took the GTX to the SeaDoo shop, and the SeaDoo shop owner told me that BUDS would NOT show any indication that either the fuel pump or air compressor were not working, even if they weren't. So... directly contradictory information. I'm going to try to get a 3-way conference call set up so that Tom and talk to the SD tech, with me on the line. Not sure the SD tech will agree to it, but it should be interesting if it happens.
So far, my gut feeling is that the SD tech is less experienced with DIs than Tom, and that the SD tech gets a very low volume of DI machines to work on... so I suspect that Tom is probably more likely to have a clear plan to diagnose and to recognize issues quickly.
Fingers crossed.
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jhjesse
Well-Known Member
Refer to post #7 in this thread.
In addition I would also have the injectors sonic cleaned since it has sat for so long.
I also agree with Tom, 0 air pressure and the engine would not run.
Air injectors could be leaking. I would just replace the 0 rings and air injector ring. Good luck.
In addition I would also have the injectors sonic cleaned since it has sat for so long.
I also agree with Tom, 0 air pressure and the engine would not run.
Air injectors could be leaking. I would just replace the 0 rings and air injector ring. Good luck.
rjcress
Active Member
I know. You were right when you made the suggestion to go through the fuel system in the first place. I knew it then and know it now. I was really rolling the dice and hoping that it would all work when I put it back together, as the ongoing soap opera with the Challenger has consumed all of my spare time... and then some. I knew I was cutting corners by not going through the fuel system and was hoping it wouldn't bite me. It looks likely that it has. One big lesson I've learned here is that these projects take more time than I thought they would. I seriously underestimated. I should have only done one at a time. Trying to rush and get 2 done in time for this summer, on top of everything else I have going on... way too much. I firmly believe in the old "if it is worth doing, it is worth doing right"... and seem to have strayed from that a bit on this project, in an effort to speed things up.
Thanks for hanging with me through this though.
rjcress
Active Member
Got the call that the GTX was ready to pick up today.
They found that the main o-ring in the air compressor had deteriorated and wasn't sealing. So they took the compressor head off, cleaned, and put in new o-ring(s).
Then they determined that the rectifier wasn't working right and replaced that.
I tested the rectifier per the FSM a few weeks ago and it tested fine... but what do I know.
Regardless, I put it in the water and ran it for a few minutes and everything worked perfectly.
So good that I expect it to blow up or sink when I launch it again next weekend.
That is the kind of luck I have had this summer.
If it does well next weekend, then I'll have to go buy some for sale signs for it.
They found that the main o-ring in the air compressor had deteriorated and wasn't sealing. So they took the compressor head off, cleaned, and put in new o-ring(s).
Then they determined that the rectifier wasn't working right and replaced that.
I tested the rectifier per the FSM a few weeks ago and it tested fine... but what do I know.
Regardless, I put it in the water and ran it for a few minutes and everything worked perfectly.
So good that I expect it to blow up or sink when I launch it again next weekend.
That is the kind of luck I have had this summer.
If it does well next weekend, then I'll have to go buy some for sale signs for it.
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rjcress
Active Member
Put about 26 miles on the GTX this weekend. It ran flawlessly the whole time.
With the never-ending issues on my Challenger, I find myself waiting for something on the GTX to break... but it has done well so far.
The hook-up out of the hole with the new impeller is amazing!
With the never-ending issues on my Challenger, I find myself waiting for something on the GTX to break... but it has done well so far.
The hook-up out of the hole with the new impeller is amazing!
rjcress
Active Member
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind.
Just ordered a new seat cover, as the old one is dry rotting.
Once that is installed, the GTX DI goes up for sale.
That gives me a week or three to enjoy it and make sure everything is right before sending it to a new home.
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