Oil Pump and Housing Damage 2014 Wake 155

[seadoon1]

Would you believe Seadoo CanAm is telling my dealer that this damage to oil pump and housings is NORMAL WEAR & TEAR !!! Yes they are. This is on (2) 2014 Wake 155's with 135 hours on each. Not much past first 100 hour service. Also had 10 hour service. That's it. And this. Found out because antifreeze was leaking out water pump weep hole and when shop got into it they found this. Two exactly the same.

Seadoo is telling dealer to reassemble the old parts! I need legal help. Anyone know of where I can get some quick?

 

[seadoon1]

Would you believe Seadoo CanAm is telling my dealer that this damage to oil pump and housings is NORMAL WEAR & TEAR !!! Yes they are. This is on (2) 2014 Wake 155's with 135 hours on each. Not much past first 100 hour service. Also had 10 hour service. That's it. And this. Found out because antifreeze was leaking out water pump weep hole and when shop got into it they found this. Two exactly the same.

Seadoo is telling dealer to reassemble the old parts! I need legal help. Anyone know of where I can get some quick?

I forgot to add both ski's are under warranty for another two weeks.

 

[Coastiejoe]

If you are under warranty, then get them done and get back on the water...

 

[seadoon1]

If you are under warranty, then get them done and get back on the water...

Did you read my post? It says, Seadoo wants to put it back together with the damaged parts, not new parts.

Would you do that? Would you condone that? The dealer does not agree with that but has to follow Seadoo direction for warranty work.

 

[Coastiejoe]

You are in a horrible spot. If there was an issue that prompted you to take the ski to the dealer to diagnose it, and they found a legit issue that is not "reasonable normal wear", then it needs to be service by Seadoo I would think. I'd contact the Better Business Bureau. I would also pressure the dealer to stand up a bit more aggressively. My thoughts are, unless you are paying for the R/R, that means that BRP is footing the cost. Thus,,, they are accepting some sort of a Warranty type claim via the dealer.

It may be to your financial advantage to buy new parts and let them install them for free. Not that it is the fairest answer, but it may be the best answer in the big picture. If not, you will likely be entertaining a repair in the future and you will eat the total cost,,,,

 

[seadoon1]

The dealer found metal particles in the oil pump screen. None in oil filter. I bought non supercharged specifically to avoid the maintenance for a supercharger, and avaoid possible damage like this. Yet, without a supercharger I still have similar damage as clutch failure.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Wow... that's nasty! There is actually a test in the Seadoo manual to measure the clearances of these parts. I doubt they will pass in this state. You may be able to get them on that and force them into replacing. But I agree, these parts are FU(#3D! Don't let them reassemble like this.

 

[seadoon1]

Scoring

I found in the factory service manual where it states "Check inside of oil pump housing and its cover for scoring or other damages and replace if damaged”

 

[seadoon1]

Would you believe Seadoo CanAm is telling my dealer that this damage to oil pump and housings is NORMAL WEAR & TEAR !!! Yes they are. This is on (2) 2014 Wake 155's with 135 hours on each. Not much past first 100 hour service. Also had 10 hour service. That's it. And this. Found out because antifreeze was leaking out water pump weep hole and when shop got into it they found this. Two exactly the same.

Seadoo is telling dealer to reassemble the old parts! I need legal help. Anyone know of where I can get some quick?

Update 7/1/16
Dealer gave both ski's back on 5/26/16 after putting on new pto cases, both oil pumps new, and some other small parts. Got Seadoo to cover under warranty after threatening legal action. On starting at the lake, Immeadiately had low oil pressure code on #2. Leaking around oil filter center bolt on #1 & #2. Went into limp mode. Had towed back and returned to dealer. They found #2 had a broken oil pressure regulator and fluctuating oil pressure. The other one #1 was ok, just replaced oil filter housing seal. Took them out on 6/11/16 and again low oil pressure code on #2. Took back to dealer on 5/20/16. They took #2's engine back out and apart to find the same damage to oil pumps and housings as they did the very first time on 3/3/16.
So now they've effectively been out of service from 3/3-7/1/16 and counting. That's 4 months! Seadoo says to replace parts just like they did before. Still waiting....

 

[seadoon1]

1/1/17 Update
Both ski's were in t eshop most of July 2016 with leaking oil issue's after repair, broken parts caused by dealer getting fixed. #2 had to have the engine taken apart again and found all the same damage as before. Both oil pumps and housings had to be replaced, again, due to 1,000's of metal particals in oil. #1 was not taken apart, but was certified by dealer as clean just by changing the oil. I question that tactic. Got both ski's back on 8/5/16, now with 150 hours on each.

I ran them 30 more hours until 10/17/16 and inspected water pump weep holes. Both ski's were leaking from the hole. Coolant was down 3/4" in tank. It is now apparent that if it takes 120 hours to lose 2.5" of coolant, which they both did from Brand New to 120 hours, that using 3/4" in 30 hours would result in the same 2.5" used from leakage in another 90 hours. Shows the initial problem began when new.

I also took out the oil filters and found them filled with metal particles. Same problem, same damage with leaking water pump seals. I would bet the cases and oil pumps are gone too.

Both ski's have been sitting at dealer since. Seadoo has denied warranty coverage. I have hired an attorney. Seeking two new ski's or at the least two complete new long blocks with all attachments. Plus #2 needs a new jet pump assembly due t dealer caused issues they seem unable to fix.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

:facepalm:

 

[gti 130 wow]

Oil pumps failing are about as rare as rocking horse shit .Its so rare I have never read of one going bad on any site .I own a 94 town car that has 280k miles and no problems. I think you need to take your pwc's to some independent shop to find out why they are failing . Maybe it's something that may require a pair of new engines and someone does not want to pay that high price .

 

[gti 130 wow]

I Would also suggest that you go to the Green Hulk web site and create a post complaining about it .
Their are employees from BRP that monitor that site along with the Green Hulk crew and they know posting such a complaint will hit them (BRP) in the wallet in lost sales . A guy just recently posted about a IBR fail that injured him , that he is talking to a lawyer and he got taken care right away .

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

I actually have seen oil pumps fail on cars, but this particular car is known to shit its timing chain guides. I suspect a piece of it got into the pump and screwed up some telorance, which cascaded into the clusterF#*k that I had to deal with. I've seen them on 4tecs, but mainly from pieces of ceramic washer from a failed supercharger making their rounds through the oil system. If these are naturally aspirated, its a real mystery...
Here's some education on the 4tec oil system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giv17zDyX88

 

[seadoon1]

1/1/17 Update
Both ski's were in t eshop most of July 2016 with leaking oil issue's after repair, broken parts caused by dealer getting fixed. #2 had to have the engine taken apart again and found all the same damage as before. Both oil pumps and housings had to be replaced, again, due to 1,000's of metal particals in oil. #1 was not taken apart, but was certified by dealer as clean just by changing the oil. I question that tactic. Got both ski's back on 8/5/16, now with 150 hours on each.

I ran them 30 more hours until 10/17/16 and inspected water pump weep holes. Both ski's were leaking from the hole. Coolant was down 3/4" in tank. It is now apparent that if it takes 120 hours to lose 2.5" of coolant, which they both did from Brand New to 120 hours, that using 3/4" in 30 hours would result in the same 2.5" used from leakage in another 90 hours. Shows the initial problem began when new.

I also took out the oil filters and found them filled with metal particles. Same problem, same damage with leaking water pump seals. I would bet the cases and oil pumps are gone too.

Both ski's have been sitting at dealer since. Seadoo has denied warranty coverage. I have hired an attorney. Seeking two new ski's or at the least two complete new long blocks with all attachments. Plus #2 needs a new jet pump assembly due t dealer caused issues they seem unable to fix.

3/4/17 Update:
Back in Nov 16, both Dealer and BRP refused warranty coverage. They both sat. I hired an attorney. He sent a demand letter. Those usually get BRP's attention from past experience. He sent several follow up letters when BRP was balking through Feb 16.
Now were here. BRP is going to put in funds along with my trade in value to replace both units. But, the dealer is not putting in much, less than 1,000ea, this is because their plan is to come out even or make a profit when they resell or wholesale the defective ones. Which if fixed will be Blue Book worth 9,800. Dealer keeps trying to say their cost is 11,300. I seriously doubt it. Thats only 700 below msrp! To make this all work, I have to put in several thousand dollars, which they say is for my one year of use @ 120 hours, plus I don't get my 2,000 attorney fees back. So in the end I have to pay for two major defective seadoo's about 4k. Ok, I had one year use, but then I lost almost two years use due to all the problems. So it nullify's the one year use claim.
Bottom line is BRP and Dealer have tainted my confidence in both. I am 60 now and probably won't get another set of watercraft in my life. But if I do, it won't be seadoo. I only take these because i have to.
It's pretty bad when you pay alot of money for two new boats, get lemons, and then get screwed. I know I would of won in court hands down but it would take a year and that would mean another lost year.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Damn, that's a lousy scenario.... I wonder what could have been the cause of all this... These were not skis with old ceramic supercharger washers right? I'm sorry to hear BRP gave you such a run around, they're USUALLY not this problematic. I've only dealt with used boats, and unless they were already blown up when I got them, they were nowhere near this problematic. Hope you get your new skis soon and have some trouble-free riding!

 

[seadoon1]

Damn, that's a lousy scenario.... I wonder what could have been the cause of all this... These were not skis with old ceramic supercharger washers right? I'm sorry to hear BRP gave you such a run around, they're USUALLY not this problematic. I've only dealt with used boats, and unless they were already blown up when I got them, they were nowhere near this problematic. Hope you get your new skis soon and have some trouble-free riding!

Another member on here messaged me and said to go here also http://www.************** greenhulk
I went there. Guess what I've found? Many members there whole heartedly agree that it is totally normal for the casings next to oil pump to get scored, the oil pump parts pitted and gouged, with the resulting metal particles flowing through the engine. And all in direct contradiction to the Factory Service manual that is given to Seadoo techs in the dealer ships. There is no explanation as to why they say this, they just do. So who knows what side they are on.

Some members here say they have never heard of such problems. Well, have they actually done factual analysis to investigate wether or not their engine is doing this? Similar to what I've done, inspecting weep hole, checking in oil filter pleats, removing rear engine cover to see oil pumps and housings, checking the screen in engine?

It's really odd, some members, or professionals out there like Seadoo shop service managers, engine rebuilders, mechanics, etc say a four stroke engine such as these seadoos have should last indefinitely given factory recommended service and the metal particle should never happen, to one's who say it happens all the time, it's normal, so live with it, in contradiction to factory specs. This could become another class action issue. I think it may be a big cover up. And who's the loser? Us, the customer.

 

[Wookie]

Wow, definitely makes one loose faith in BRP. I just picked up my first ever seadoo, 2000 gtx di and had to replace air injectors, but after reading this, I don't think I'll buy a seadoo again.

I'm wondering if you hadn't accepted their deal and still threatened to go to court, if they wouldn't have made it right to avoid court.

 

[seadoon1]

Wow, definitely makes one loose faith in BRP. I just picked up my first ever seadoo, 2000 gtx di and had to replace air injectors, but after reading this, I don't think I'll buy a seadoo again.

I'm wondering if you hadn't accepted their deal and still threatened to go to court, if they wouldn't have made it right to avoid court.

I accepted. Only because I am old and not much time left to use these ski's. It could take a year in court. Though I had the evidence. It cost me. But not a terrible lot. I am a principle person so it is hard to take.

 

[seadoon1]

Metal Particles in oil Poll

Latest Poll results on 3/4/17


P.S. Oil filter pic is one of many. Camera cannot pick up what human eye can. There are hundreds of metal particles in every pleat. Only the biggest show on camera picture. None of the voters are known to me professionals.

 

[gti 130 wow]

Here in Va , you can take someone to small claims court , sew for up to $5000 , no attorney is necessary and if you win , the loser has to pay court cost . I recently sued a corporation for $1350 over the theft of a very expensive radio that was stolen while in their possession and won . Doing this is very simple except with a major company like BRP you have to find out who their agent is that handles law suits , which is usually at a large bank and send that person your notice of intent to sue. I think when you take such action , notice goes way up the food chain at BRP and things get fixed !!!!!


Also theoretically if the oiling system ,cooling system , engine not run lean etc are working right then effectively their is no ware. I have a 24 year old Town car with 370k miles for example and the engine and drive train works just fine . I have seen people with outbound motors that date to the 1960es that still put out and I bet their guys with 2 stroke pwc's that can make the same claim . I am even amazed at the cool way the drive shaft is lubed and a oil scraper ring that does a great job of keeping the oil clean. This is such a well engineered engine , I think this guy may have got a pair of lemons and that's really unfortunate. I have gone 370 hrs on my GTI -130 since purchasing it new in 9/2015 and it's oil consumption when I careful about over reving
Is close to zero . It's the best running engine so far I have ever owned and that's with a V Tech stock tune. I am very careful during the winter to not run this engine in the sport mode cuz when the pump breaks free the rpms' can go through the roof and would not be at all surprised if this was the hidden reason behind this guys failure!!!!!!! I have read post of people who have access to the buds systems reporting that some of these pwc's have experienced short term revs in excess of 10k rpm and that just can't be good!

That's not to say it's his fault , but does not seem to be much talked about.



I just noticed after he post this on Green Hulk , Mr Hulk came on and tried to make the claim that such wear was normal. Keep in mind that he regularly has BRP care employees answering questions on his site , sometimes deletes threads that are not favorable to BRP like recently a video of a injury sustained as a failure of its gen 2 ibr so their may be some conflict of interest going on here.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7qKWHsGZTA&t=57s

 

[seadoon1]

Poll update 4/7/17

Looks like metal in the oil and housing damage as normal is winning........... amongst non professional opinions anyway:facepalm:

 

[gti 130 wow]

Poll update 4/7/17

Looks like metal in the oil and housing damage as normal is winning........... amongst non professional opinions anyway:facepalm:

If it's normal wear , then someone will have to explain how na skis with I presume the same oil pump are able to run 1000+ hours without failing !

 

[Sea Dood]

You guys are clueless and jumping to conclusions for which you know nothing about. Metal particles on this engine is totally normal, as is scoring on the pumps. Why? Because the starter bendix assembly on this engine is located totally within the PTO oil cavity. When the starter engages, chips of metal get generated. Look at the leading edge of the flywheel, rounding of the edges means chips in the oil and scoring of the pumps. The big flakes get caught in the screens, the fine ones get caught in the filter. Now that you have been advised what is going on, let it go as your rant is asinine as is the chiming in by ill-informed people on this thread. There is no "whitewashing" over in GH, they simply know more than you.

 

[gti 130 wow]

You guys are clueless and jumping to conclusions for which you know nothing about. Metal particles on this engine is totally normal, as is scoring on the pumps. Why? Because the starter bendix assembly on this engine is located totally within the PTO oil cavity. When the starter engages, chips of metal get generated. Look at the leading edge of the flywheel, rounding of the edges means chips in the oil and scoring of the pumps. The big flakes get caught in the screens, the fine ones get caught in the filter. Now that you have been advised what is going on, let it go as your rant is asinine as is the chiming in by ill-informed people on this thread. There is no "whitewashing" over in GH, they simply know more than you.

You still have not explained how na Sea Doos can go over 1000 hours without this "normal " maintenance so this guy at a 135 hours is being treated wrong and your analysis and GH just does not add up and has one wondering why someone would even push such nonsense. Also as a side note , any metal debris that gets into the oil from the defective super charger he declares as normal maintenance so his response is a derivative of that .