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not your normal no-spark condition, what is this?

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singram84

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787 NEW MPEM still no spark what about aftermarket ignition???

To anyone:

Please help me solve this... 1997 XP 800 aftermarket head, carbs pipe rev limiter etc, no problems there, last time I ran this ski was five years ago. The battery was dead so I jumped it and dropped it in the boat ramp. Ran it till fuel was close to empty and parked it for winter.

Next spring, purchased new battery, new fuel, ect, tried to start but NO! Took to dealer, was told stator was bad due to overcharging on last use when I ran it after battery was jumped. This made sense so I bought new stator assembly with pickup. Did not work. Motor spins over, no spark. We replaced the coil, then the plug wires, then the rectifyer, and she still will not run. I took to dealer after all these items were replaced, was told computer was bad. It was very expensive so I parked it in the garage.

Fast forward five years or so it seems, Finally broke down and bought new computer last week, have been super excited to plug in and hear my ski run again. idrained all the old fuel out, ran all new fuel lines, cleaned my carbs, revisited all my wiring on my aftermarket rev limiter, cut the old connections and soldered new ones just in case the old one had been corroded etc. They looked perfectly fine, solder and shrinkwrapped, but I did it anyway as a precaution. Bought another new battery and a new key at dealership, had programmed, motor spins over, did it start..........NO still no spark. Have eliminated the aftermarket rev limiter to reduce any final variables. Every electrical part has been replaced, yet I do not have any voltage coming off the white wire as it exits the pcm on its way to the coil box. At this point I would be happy just using the mpem as a method of key recognition and spinning the starter over if I could find like an MSD totall loss ignition system or something. years ago I know they were made for this ski. I have not seen anything offered like that lately.
 
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Well... the dealer that made you spend all that money needs to be slapped.

1) The stator has NOTHING to do with your spark. (unless there is no power)

2) the rectifier doesn't have anything to do with your spark, unless it's over volt'ing. Then all kinds of weird things happen... but the engine would be running.

3) The computer (MPEM) does have control over the spark.... BUT... if it was cranking with your start button... then it was fine because on the 800 engine it has a digital "Hand shake" the the CDI to make sure things are OK. If there aren't... it won't crank.


On the 800... it is VERY common for the pick-up coil to break loose of it's mount. I bet if you remove the MAG cover, you will find the pickup coil loose, or broken free of it's mount.

Check it out, and let us know.
 
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Dr. Honda.

Thanks for replying. some additional info...I have learned very much thru this process. Of which is this. I have replaced the stator and pickup sender on this inside of the mag cover. the old ones did not look damaged in any way and also test the same ohm readings as the new one. I have rotated the engine by hand and verifyed the pickup unit recieving signal as engine rotates. once again, old units test the same way. This is what I have in my garage right now. Three stator assemblies, one original, one from ebay (not sure it worked as it made no difference after installing, so then I purchased brand new one). My original rectifyer, and the brand new one. I have removed the after market rev limiter. my original mpem still beeps twice, recognized my key and turns the motor over. My NEW mpem does the exact same thing!!!! I have checked for voltage at the coil, white wire should give me voltage, I have none while attempting to start, so therefor my coil is not going to fire until it gets voltage. trace the wires back thru rev limiter and eliminated it from equation. follow wire all the way to mpem plug, check for voltage right out of the mpem, none! was told by dealer that mpem was defective internally, something not working, they were not sure exactly what, maybe cdi, maybe diode, who knows. this is what I was told. I have run a new additional ground wire from the bottom of the coil to the engine block and tied it directly to the same bolt on the starter as the factory ground wire. I have new mpem, rectifyer, stator and pickup. just plain cannot buy any more parts. Lastly, my old mpem, still codes up with my key and turns engine over, no juice on white wire either mpem. I was told by a guy to try to put a hot 12volts on the coil, as the pickup is only used to interrupt the signal and thus creates your ignition sequence based on engine rotation. Well, I tried that, cranked the motor, no start and the coil got hot really quickly, like so hot I was afraid it would melt my casing so I pulled the 12v off immediately and have not done that since. I have left it with the dealer several times, just ended up buying basically all the parts I could possibly buy, well now they dont know what to do. I am super stressed as I have more than 15k tied up in this boat with all the mods, engine work, heads, pipes, ride plate, grate, sponsons, waterbox, quick trim clutch style hydraulic setup, custom paint, replaced a broken driveshaft twice at 400 a pop unitl I custom made a U joint, spline fit it into my driveshaft with mounting plate to pto, have not broken any driveshafts since, and the list goes on,
I do not want anyone to think I am discounting anyones ideas, just wanting to legitimately share with everyone exactly what I have done to this point. I think this particular instance is quite unique and hopefully someone reading could share any possibilities that I may try. I dont care if it sounds silly or whatever, I can try nearly anything to get this going.
 
You got raped if you paid $400 for a drive shaft. I think the real street price is $150... and as low as $50 for a used one. If you are braking them... the alignment between the pump, and the engine is off.


OK. The next advice you got on the ignition is bad too. The wire that goes from the CDI to the MPEM is a digital line. (0 to +5v) If you put 12v on it... I'm sure that the CDI is now fried. And it's not just a "Data high, Data Low" wire. It's and honest to goodness TTL data line.



The pulse coil is NOT an interrupter. It a trigger that tells the CDI the crank position. Internal of the CDI... it will adjust the timing as needed for engine RPM. When the CDI needs to fire... it dumps the Voltage in the capacitor into the coil, and it fires. (both plugs)
 
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I just re-read your post.

What wire exactly did you put 12v on? Did you feed the coil directly? If so... how was the CDI hooked to it?
 
I had to make a correction to post #4.

Anyway... the red/purple wire going to the CDI is the power line. Make sure you have 12V on it. Also, double check all the connections, and make sure there are no wires that have corroded behind a plug. (just had this problem with a Polaris) Check all the wires with multi meter to near 0 ohms.
 
Tony,
FYI, I did try the voltage constant to the coil a long time ago and when the old mpem was installed. It did not work, and I have not done since. I surely appreciate your technical knowledge in regard to the cdi functions etc. I am an old electronics installer from 1990 -2003 I did not have enough knowledge about how everything worked on the ski to dispute what my dealer was telling me in regards to the stator, pickup sender, rectifyer etc, I just said F...it and replaced them all. With all new components, I thoroughly expected it to start right up first crank. very disappointed am I. AS for the driveshafts, yes it was an alignment issue, it was many years ago, around 1999, the ski was still very new, no used ones were to be found anywhere, I knew I was being raped, and appreciate you reminding my of exactly how hard they pumped me. What about an aftermarket ignition? My new mpem will beep and turn the motor over, so you say all is ok. as for the 12 volts to the coil, that was simple, I unplugged the white wire on the bottom of the coil, ran a straight hot 12volts to the battery. like I said, was told bad information, but was willing to try as a test to help determine about the mpem. but that was long ago. I do have a brand new mpem, the dealer coded the new key, it beeps, turns over, plugs get nice and wet from the fuel, no spark, no run.
 
Sure... you can do a replacement ignition. I think MSD still makes one for the 800 engine, and it bypasses all the security.

You can probably find one on ebay cheap.


OK... you've changed everything other than the coil, and the CDI. Since you get 2 beeps... the MPEM is talking to the CD. BUT... that doesn't mean it's working.

Since that is a DC-CDI, internal of it is a cascade circuit that raises the voltage from 12v to somewhere around 150v. This is the voltage to charge the capacitor, that is used to fire the plugs.

First... since you got your coil hot... check it.

The primary windings should be 0.3-0.6 ohms. (the 2 female spade connectors) Between the sparkplug wires should be 12.7K ohms.

If that checks out... you are going to need a new CDI. Fortunatly... once you get it running... you can sell the extra parts here. I'm sure they will go quick.


You are right... in 99... there wouldn't have been very many used parts... and minimal aftermarket for a 4 year old ski.
 
The coil has been replaced also, I forgot to mention, and that was also after we did the quick 12volt test. Just to elaborate, I disconnected the white wire, ran hot 12 to the bottom of coil, while I hit the start button, my nephew touched the coil wire I had ran to the battery and we tried it. It was only a few seconds, but I was suprised at how hot the coil became. In either case, is not the CDI inside the mpem? If so, I have a brand new mpem so why is it I will need a CDI?
 
Also,

I have not done any type of further diagnostic work, try this or that since I bought the new mpem last week. I made sure all my wiring was check check, plugged it in in front of my dealers technician, he programmed the new key, we spun it over and I went home furious. Where can I find an msd ignition these days. years ago it was all over the pwc mags, etc. I did a quick check on ebay etc, nothing. I would prefer not to go msd since I just paid 600 bucks for this mpem. fat chance of selling the mpem for any resonable money either, everyone will tell me the same thing....its used now, how do I know it works? I said the same thing to the dealer I bought it from and there are no returns on any parts electrical, which we all knew and I knew when I bought it, I was just sooooo sure after all other things, all the posts I had read etc that replacing the mpem was my last and most expensive option but would cure it. NO luck! Anything else to check?
 
Last thing, just spoke with guys at msd, do not make a total loss ignition for that boat anymore, cannot use a universal for I will still need flywheel, pickup etc. I asked if I could modify my original flywheel to accommodate MSD pieces needed, was told not possible. wee must find a way to make the factory stuff work again.
 
Similar problem here. '04 3D. Last year, it started running rough for the 1st minute or so. Then would run better. Like when dirt bike is rough till it warms up and you rev it to "clean it out". Then one day, it ran rough, then wouldn't run better. I took it to the local SeeDoo dealer, the only authorized service dealer in driving distance from Harrisburg PA. Don's Kawasaki in York PA.

They charged me almost $300 to diagnose the problem, which they said was the stator. Also, when I got it back, it wouldn't run at all. I asked why it was running when I dropped it off, and wouldn't run when I picked it up. They said the stator was starting to go bad before I dropped it off. Then failed completely when they tested it. They said, $700 to replace the stator. We didn't have the money, so we parked it till this year. We dropped it off June 22nd, it's now Aug 4th.

The called after a week and said. They replaced the stator, it would be $800. But now the coil was testing bad, That would be another $100. I VERY reluctantly said ok. They called a week later. They ordered the wrong coil, the RIGHT coil would be another $100, now $200. I said, forget, I'll come get the ski and throw it away. The wife said, fix it. So they replaced the coil. They called a week later. That didn't fix the problem, they were now ordering another electronic thingie, I forget what it was. More $$ though. *whew* Ok. They called back. "That didn't fix it, it won't run, we have no idea why." They would try some more things and get back to us. They called back, they still don't know what's wrong. They had SeeDoo on the phone for over an hour. SeeDoo doesn't know what to do. They have ordered and tried over $3000 worth of electrical things as well as try known working parts off other skis at the shop since we dropped it off. They did however say they were't charging us for those things since they didn't fix the problem and the ski wont run. The latest is, they called another SeeDoo shop in NJ. The guys there gave them some ideas to try. Don's tried them, Nothing worked. It still won't run. They have more ideas they will try. But no one seems to have any idea at all as to how to get my 3D to run. The authorizes SeeDoo center, the SeeDoo factory, the other SeeDoo dealer in NJ etc. None of them. They have been kind, and they are obviously frustrated with the whole thing. They won't get paid till I get a running ski back. And I'm sure they don't want to admit they are incompetent.

I suspected that perhaps the guy that put the stator in did something wrong, and the failure is hidden. They did have to pull the motor to replace the stator. But at this point, I'm also sure there is no way they haven't check that.

I haven't asked, but I'm pretty sure the reason it won't run is spark. Or lack of.

I'll keep you posted!

BTW: Any other guitar players?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtCrHmAvDkk

-Darin
This mystery is very fascinating. But I just want to ride my 3D!!!!

Another interesting point. When the guy replaced the stator, and then called to tell us we needed a coil, he asked if we ever rebuilt the motor or replaced it. I said, "No we bought the ski brand new and ride it maybe 3 to 5 hours a year".

Thoughts?
 
being as this post is 2 years old, and the ski mentioned had modified parts, please start a new thread with your ski, stating year, model, engine size, and all symptoms
 
griz400 said:
being as this post is 2 years old, and the ski mentioned had modified parts, please start a new thread with your ski, stating year, model, engine size, and all symptoms
Click to expand...

It's now April 3rd 2012!!! And....my ski is STILL at Don's Kawasaki in York, PA and STILL not running. Apparently their top guy, along with many calls to SeaDoo has not done anything to get my ski in the water.

I have no words of advice for anyone with a similar problem, other than to throw your ski away and buy another one, because obviously, the problem what ever it is, is terminal.

They (Don's) said every component checks out fine, but it won't spark. I know they want to get paid for the work they did, so they have no incentive in NOT repairing it. And I ain't giving them a dime until it's running like a top. The only thing they have not replaced is the ECM. And SeaDoo says that cannot be the problem. So no one wants to spend the $1000 to find out if it is or not. I suspect it IS the problem. But I am NOT ordering a $1k part on a "guess".
 
RugDog said:
It's now April 3rd 2012!!! And....my ski is STILL at Don's Kawasaki in York, PA and STILL not running. Apparently their top guy, along with many calls to SeaDoo has not done anything to get my ski in the water.

I have no words of advice for anyone with a similar problem, other than to throw your ski away and buy another one, because obviously, the problem what ever it is, is terminal.

They (Don's) said every component checks out fine, but it won't spark. I know they want to get paid for the work they did, so they have no incentive in NOT repairing it. And I ain't giving them a dime until it's running like a top. The only thing they have not replaced is the ECM. And SeaDoo says that cannot be the problem. So no one wants to spend the $1000 to find out if it is or not. I suspect it IS the problem. But I am NOT ordering a $1k part on a "guess".
Click to expand...


I found the answer, if its the same as mine it cost $1 to fix........
 
okay, this is the extent of what i been through,,,,,new engine, I changed the stator, i changed starter, i changed the coil and coil box assembly, i changed the wirring, i changed the gas lines, i changed the plugs, i changed the mpem cause it was blowing the 5 amp fuse, just to find out that the connection from the VTS was toast so I unplugged the vts connection at the rear and ran a ground wire from battery to coil and it started first shot. and installed an aftermrket switch and live and ground wires for the vts now everything is perfect. that vts plug not working well your xp will not start....holy crap. mines perfect now. hope this helps, cause thousands of dollars to the dealers and they still cant figure it out.
 
I think he's on to someething because everything plugged in has to be right or it won't start. Even if it's just the fuel sending unit. Not plugged in = no start.
 
and on another note you can install a MPEM from a 1997 GTX on a 1997 XP you see the XP has 2 plug ins and the gtx has 3......so if your not worried about your gauges you can drop in a MPEM from a 1997 GTX into 1997 XP it works and it cost a lot cheaper to buy..I am proof and Im getting top speed and power without having to modify anything.........
 
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