Challenger 4tec Upgrade
- Thread starter IDoSeaDoo
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IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Mock-up
You may be right Jesse, I thought about this issue too. Turns out the 4tec also is laid down at an angle, though not as steep as the 787. It might be a problem, but it's the least of my concerns.
Just an update: Friday I cut the X4 hull in half and cleaned it up for the mockup.
I cut up a few 2x4 blocks to set the motor onto, but I think later will switch to one peice of 2x4 and thin plywood shims to get me closer to the height of the pedestals I'm going to have to make. I still plan on using a few of the aluminum shims, so I'm specifically not going to make the pedestals to perfect height (so I have wiggle room later).
I set the engine onto the blocks, being careful to align it as best as I can to the outlet hole. Overall the spacing of the mounts is very similar to that of the 787 making my job a little easier.
You may be right Jesse, I thought about this issue too. Turns out the 4tec also is laid down at an angle, though not as steep as the 787. It might be a problem, but it's the least of my concerns.
Just an update: Friday I cut the X4 hull in half and cleaned it up for the mockup.
I cut up a few 2x4 blocks to set the motor onto, but I think later will switch to one peice of 2x4 and thin plywood shims to get me closer to the height of the pedestals I'm going to have to make. I still plan on using a few of the aluminum shims, so I'm specifically not going to make the pedestals to perfect height (so I have wiggle room later).
I set the engine onto the blocks, being careful to align it as best as I can to the outlet hole. Overall the spacing of the mounts is very similar to that of the 787 making my job a little easier.
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IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Mock up 2/2
Here you can see the misalignment I'm talking about. It appears that I'm going to have to use the intake tunnel and thru-hull fitting of the GTX and glass it into the boat. The big problem here is the exhaust pipe fitment, and the placing of the heat exchanger ride-plate. I would like to minimally extend the hull, just to accommodate the ride plate, the tunnel, and that plastic thing the pump mounts to. I can't attach the heat exchanger as is because it would stick out like a foot past the hull. Extending the transom has occured to me, but seems very difficult. I believe it would be better and easier to just switch to a conventional inboard heat exchanger. My options then are to use the cooling supply provided by the pump (by removing that reducer washer) and making the J-pipe and heat exchanger share. I might even need a thermostat to make sure the engine gets up to operating temps.
Anyway, then I have the question of the exhaust pipe: There is not going to be enough room for it to go in the way it was on the ski, even if I reverse it. My question is, can I run it in reverse, like have the J pipe feed in into the outlet?? Would that screw up the sonic resonance? Is it that important on a non-turbo 4-stroke? Also, what exactly is the purpose of that temp probe on the exhaust pipe?
I've already started cutting apart the GTX, and man, the salt water about ate that thing to death. It was ready to go. Many of the hose clamps and bolts simply broke off. This thing has lived in the salt for a long time. I'm glad only the exhaust can be affected by this. Anyway, once I have the GTX apart, I can start looking further into what I need to do to mate these two hulls.
Here you can see the misalignment I'm talking about. It appears that I'm going to have to use the intake tunnel and thru-hull fitting of the GTX and glass it into the boat. The big problem here is the exhaust pipe fitment, and the placing of the heat exchanger ride-plate. I would like to minimally extend the hull, just to accommodate the ride plate, the tunnel, and that plastic thing the pump mounts to. I can't attach the heat exchanger as is because it would stick out like a foot past the hull. Extending the transom has occured to me, but seems very difficult. I believe it would be better and easier to just switch to a conventional inboard heat exchanger. My options then are to use the cooling supply provided by the pump (by removing that reducer washer) and making the J-pipe and heat exchanger share. I might even need a thermostat to make sure the engine gets up to operating temps.
Anyway, then I have the question of the exhaust pipe: There is not going to be enough room for it to go in the way it was on the ski, even if I reverse it. My question is, can I run it in reverse, like have the J pipe feed in into the outlet?? Would that screw up the sonic resonance? Is it that important on a non-turbo 4-stroke? Also, what exactly is the purpose of that temp probe on the exhaust pipe?
I've already started cutting apart the GTX, and man, the salt water about ate that thing to death. It was ready to go. Many of the hose clamps and bolts simply broke off. This thing has lived in the salt for a long time. I'm glad only the exhaust can be affected by this. Anyway, once I have the GTX apart, I can start looking further into what I need to do to mate these two hulls.
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
on that note...
You're right Doc, and I have thought about that as well. Today I went back to lowes and returned the gallon of polyester resin. I'm gonna go with something a little more boat-builder worthy, like epoxy, or even that super stable vinyl ester resin. I'm going to build it strong, as I'll be glassing in the part that pushes the whole rest of the boat. I'm saving pieces of the old skies, like the angles and suck to use as potential braces. Damn if that fiberglass dust doesn't suck to work in :ack:
You're right Doc, and I have thought about that as well. Today I went back to lowes and returned the gallon of polyester resin. I'm gonna go with something a little more boat-builder worthy, like epoxy, or even that super stable vinyl ester resin. I'm going to build it strong, as I'll be glassing in the part that pushes the whole rest of the boat. I'm saving pieces of the old skies, like the angles and suck to use as potential braces. Damn if that fiberglass dust doesn't suck to work in :ack:
Google Seadoo jet jon. That will give you some ideas.
Here is one link, there are some other good pics on the interwebs that I've seen.
http://www.glen-l.com/jetski/seadoo-gs.html
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2
Here is one link, there are some other good pics on the interwebs that I've seen.
http://www.glen-l.com/jetski/seadoo-gs.html
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Update
Not much to report, I got lazy and just cut half of the top of the GTX hull off the base. Those pillar junctions were just too annoying to separate properly. I CAN'T BELIEVE how heavy this hull is. Just that top rear portion must weight like 100lbs! Anyway, I might not even have to cut the front of the hull as I only need to get to the tunnel/motor mounts area.
I've been studying up on Heat Exchangers, as I don't plan on using the stock ride plate one. I wonder if a small 10 (or 14) plate 5"x12"x3" exchanger with 1/2" NPT inlets would work for me. I plan on building a cleanable filter for it using an old stainless steel VW intake screen. It's big and round and I think I could fab up a thing I can occasionally take apart and clean. I'm worried that the heat exchanger will get clogged up with lake debris, despite the pump having a little screen in front of the inlet. If anyone has used a plate heat exchanger for a motor, don't be shy to speak up.
Also, anyone know if I can shorten the waterbox or run it in reverse? I do have the ability and know-how to weld, so that's always an option. Would it be a lot louder without the resonator? It seemed DAMN loud before, probably on purpose as it was the first S/C boat seadoo ever made. I think they wanted people to turn heads and witness the miracle of an 800+ pound mini yach going 60
Not much to report, I got lazy and just cut half of the top of the GTX hull off the base. Those pillar junctions were just too annoying to separate properly. I CAN'T BELIEVE how heavy this hull is. Just that top rear portion must weight like 100lbs! Anyway, I might not even have to cut the front of the hull as I only need to get to the tunnel/motor mounts area.
I've been studying up on Heat Exchangers, as I don't plan on using the stock ride plate one. I wonder if a small 10 (or 14) plate 5"x12"x3" exchanger with 1/2" NPT inlets would work for me. I plan on building a cleanable filter for it using an old stainless steel VW intake screen. It's big and round and I think I could fab up a thing I can occasionally take apart and clean. I'm worried that the heat exchanger will get clogged up with lake debris, despite the pump having a little screen in front of the inlet. If anyone has used a plate heat exchanger for a motor, don't be shy to speak up.
Also, anyone know if I can shorten the waterbox or run it in reverse? I do have the ability and know-how to weld, so that's always an option. Would it be a lot louder without the resonator? It seemed DAMN loud before, probably on purpose as it was the first S/C boat seadoo ever made. I think they wanted people to turn heads and witness the miracle of an 800+ pound mini yach going 60
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Just bought a 55000 BTU stainless steel shell/tube heat exchanager. Can't wait to bench test it! Do you guys know if I can have the driveshaft OUT when I run it? It seemed oily when I pulled it out... I'm not gonna dump my oil out the PTO outlet when I fire it up will i?
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Put the engine back in the GTX with the rear top half of the hull cut away. Hooked everything up and started it. She fired right up, no codes, but smoked quite a bit. Also, I found that I damaged the seal on the driveshaft bearing when removing the driveshaft. The damn thing was so rusted, I had to move the engine fwd off the driveshaft, and then slide the shaft out forward. This ski has been too abused by salt water. Currently I'm leaking oil out of that output seal. Any one have a good used one I can pick up cheap?
I ran it only for a split second, as I have no water running to it yet (heat exchanger comes in tomorrow), but it was stupid loud with and without the resonator pipe. In the brief time, I did not notice a difference between the two. Can't wait to hook up the water to it. I'm going to basically split the water coming from the pump in two. One side will be restricted to by an orifice the same diameter as the restrictor washer, the other side will go to the heat exchanger.
I ran it only for a split second, as I have no water running to it yet (heat exchanger comes in tomorrow), but it was stupid loud with and without the resonator pipe. In the brief time, I did not notice a difference between the two. Can't wait to hook up the water to it. I'm going to basically split the water coming from the pump in two. One side will be restricted to by an orifice the same diameter as the restrictor washer, the other side will go to the heat exchanger.
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Well, I've been carefully going over the Lil Wake thread, and have gotten many good ideas from it. I will try to copy him as much as I can, and be sure to thank the guy for doing all the leg work on how to do this. I feel confident that it can be done, and done right.
I got the engine all hooked up in the exposed old hull. I want to test the heat exchanger before I proceed, so I can keep an idea of how the cooling system will be laid out. Also, this is not something I want to test AFTER I have rebuild and reassembled the motor. Until tonight, I could not run my engine for any length of time as my damaged driveshaft carrier seal leaked oil profusely. Today, I found a suitable plug and have been able to continue testing the cooling system. Earlier tests dumped so much oil, that I was worried about running the head dry.
Anyway, the engine starts right up and runs, but damn is it loud! Even with all the intake and exhaust components installed, it's still loud! I guess it'll be silenced some once it's in the hull. Anyway, I had the engine idling for a few minutes, but didn't want to persist too long so as not to irritate the neighbors at 9:30pm. I monitored the head and exhaust components with an IR heat gun. In the cooling setup, I had a T, half the water going to the heat exchanger, and the other half to the exhaust system. At first, the exhaust manifold was getting really hot, and I realized that I had to restrict the flow to the heat exchanger as it didn't have enough resistance to force water into the exhaust system. I put a couple hose pinchers on the heat exchanger inlet and continued my test. I ran it for maybe two minutes total and shut it down. There were a few backfires that I attribute to me adding some crappy old fuel. I realize this was a stupid mistake and tomorrow will dump it into my lawn mower's tank and put some fresh high-test in there. At the end of the test, the engine was hot to the touch, but not overly so. The exhaust system was cooler, but the waterbox, and especially the resonator pipe were REALLY hot. The heat gun registered the WB at like 170 and the resonator at 200 and up. I wish I would have checked this while the ski was running, but can someone tell me if that's normal?
I had the hose on full blast, and the heat exchanger was only a little warm when I touched it. The heat gun registered the head at somewhere around 140-170. Same as the oil cooler.
Anyway, pics and more testing tomorrow.
I got the engine all hooked up in the exposed old hull. I want to test the heat exchanger before I proceed, so I can keep an idea of how the cooling system will be laid out. Also, this is not something I want to test AFTER I have rebuild and reassembled the motor. Until tonight, I could not run my engine for any length of time as my damaged driveshaft carrier seal leaked oil profusely. Today, I found a suitable plug and have been able to continue testing the cooling system. Earlier tests dumped so much oil, that I was worried about running the head dry.
Anyway, the engine starts right up and runs, but damn is it loud! Even with all the intake and exhaust components installed, it's still loud! I guess it'll be silenced some once it's in the hull. Anyway, I had the engine idling for a few minutes, but didn't want to persist too long so as not to irritate the neighbors at 9:30pm. I monitored the head and exhaust components with an IR heat gun. In the cooling setup, I had a T, half the water going to the heat exchanger, and the other half to the exhaust system. At first, the exhaust manifold was getting really hot, and I realized that I had to restrict the flow to the heat exchanger as it didn't have enough resistance to force water into the exhaust system. I put a couple hose pinchers on the heat exchanger inlet and continued my test. I ran it for maybe two minutes total and shut it down. There were a few backfires that I attribute to me adding some crappy old fuel. I realize this was a stupid mistake and tomorrow will dump it into my lawn mower's tank and put some fresh high-test in there. At the end of the test, the engine was hot to the touch, but not overly so. The exhaust system was cooler, but the waterbox, and especially the resonator pipe were REALLY hot. The heat gun registered the WB at like 170 and the resonator at 200 and up. I wish I would have checked this while the ski was running, but can someone tell me if that's normal?
I had the hose on full blast, and the heat exchanger was only a little warm when I touched it. The heat gun registered the head at somewhere around 140-170. Same as the oil cooler.
Anyway, pics and more testing tomorrow.
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Heat Exchanger Testing
Here's the heat exchanger.
And there's the engine all hooked up. I used all the pipes that it came with, so it looks like a total mess, but it's clamped in all the right places and will do for just temporary bench testing. The finished product will be clean, trust me on that!
Does anyone know how hot the waterbox and resonator are supposed to get?
Here's the heat exchanger.
And there's the engine all hooked up. I used all the pipes that it came with, so it looks like a total mess, but it's clamped in all the right places and will do for just temporary bench testing. The finished product will be clean, trust me on that!
Does anyone know how hot the waterbox and resonator are supposed to get?
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Well, figured out why it was backfiring: I had a small leak in my intake manifold seal. It was creating a lean condition and making the engine run hotter. Having fixed it, I tested out the heat exchanger. I had a separate hose running to the exhaust, so as to not take any chances. The engine was completely stable at idle, heat gun reported head temperatures right at 200F, which is where the thermostat is designed to open. Increasing RPM to the 4-5k range, I saw the head climb to 205-210 range. The heat exchanger and the coolant return line were also pretty hot, so I decided that this exchanger is too small. I found this great thread on Greenhulk where someone has already done a heat exchanger conversion and some comparisons to the original ride plate.This week I will return it to the manufacturer and purchase a 30 plate exchanger. They are more compact and have more surface area. Their only problem is that once they clog up, you can't really do anything but get a new one. I don't think it will be a problem as I have a very good strainer for my setup. Next issue to tackle is how to split the water from the pump between the exhaust system and the heat exchanger.
I also experimented with the engine running with and without the resonator. It's definitely a lot louder without, so I've decided to keep it. Man, it was damn good to hear my baby purr again I love this engine!
I also experimented with the engine running with and without the resonator. It's definitely a lot louder without, so I've decided to keep it. Man, it was damn good to hear my baby purr again
I love this engine!
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
I hate to report that work on this project has been really slow lately. I'm still waiting on the spark plug adapter before tearing the motor down for a rebuild. I also had to do some impromptu yard work while it's spring and the right time to plant grass.
I got my new 30-plate exchanger, and did some testing at high rpm. The head surface temperatures remained steady at around 200F at 5.5-6k rpm. I didn't want to run it long with no load on, but about a minute of sustained RPMs proved that the temps were not going up. The return line was barely warm. I ran the water line first to the exchanger, then from there to the exhaust. The exhaust never got too hot either, so I think my cooling system design is done. This week, I'll start the rebuild, then the hull!
I got my new 30-plate exchanger, and did some testing at high rpm. The head surface temperatures remained steady at around 200F at 5.5-6k rpm. I didn't want to run it long with no load on, but about a minute of sustained RPMs proved that the temps were not going up. The return line was barely warm. I ran the water line first to the exchanger, then from there to the exhaust. The exhaust never got too hot either, so I think my cooling system design is done. This week, I'll start the rebuild, then the hull!
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Tested compression finally: 150 on all three holes. I couldn't believe how even the numbers were across the engine. Going to leave pistons and bottom end bearings alone, just change the chain, and maybe mic the existing bearings if I must remove any for chain installation.
Also, my yellow reducer came in. The hole is a bit wider than my tattered red reducer, as the yellow is for the 215's with the intercooler. I've decided to try this one first as my cooling setup is more similar to the 215's.
Also, my yellow reducer came in. The hole is a bit wider than my tattered red reducer, as the yellow is for the 215's with the intercooler. I've decided to try this one first as my cooling setup is more similar to the 215's.
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Well, after much research, I've decided against the oiler mod. I finished most of the dreaded yard work and now am doing the engine rebuild. I build a make-shift sandblaster cabinet to clean up some flaking/corroded parts and spent all of last weekend sandblasting. 
I've shot the parts up with the Moeller marine paint and they're lookin' good Pics to come. Today I'm going to take my freshly rebuilt and painted S/C to my neighbor's to use his dial torque wrench to check the slip moment. Then going to pull apart the block and replace the chain, valves and flywheel bolts, as well as check the oil pumps. Turns out the S/C was rebuilt with ceramic washers and a tiny sliver the size of a finger nail clipping chipped off of one. I have no doubt the pumps are fine, but I want to be doubly sure.
I've shot the parts up with the Moeller marine paint and they're lookin' good
Pics to come. Today I'm going to take my freshly rebuilt and painted S/C to my neighbor's to use his dial torque wrench to check the slip moment. Then going to pull apart the block and replace the chain, valves and flywheel bolts, as well as check the oil pumps. Turns out the S/C was rebuilt with ceramic washers and a tiny sliver the size of a finger nail clipping chipped off of one. I have no doubt the pumps are fine, but I want to be doubly sure.
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Can't catch a break this summer to do anything on the boat... Just bought a car for my gf who is coming to live with me this winter. The car needs a lot of body work and a paint job so.... boat goes on hold yet again. Looks like it's going to turn into a winter project...
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Finally finished rebuilding the motor: New IWIS timing chain, new crankshaft gear bolts, new Supertech valves and seals, and rebuild S/C. I had a tiny sliver of S/C clutch washer break off and score up my oil pump surfaces above and below the rotors. I sanded the top face plates smooth and reinstalled, but they immediately got new grooves in them. I guess the rotors themselves are grooved, which is okay since it'll be like a lock/key and not allow much oil by. I didn't have any low oil pressure indicators, so I think it's okay. The rotor clearances were perfect otherwise. Now I have to fix and repaint a hail-damaged car before continuing with the rest of the project...
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Hey guys, I have a question. I'm still a 1.5 projects away from starting on the boat, and have the 185hp Seadoo engine sitting with all fresh and upgraded parts. I have a chance to get a very cheap ($600) Kawasake STX15f with the 160hp engine. It will be impossible to title, and hence is only worth its parts. I read that it gets better fuel economy than the GTI 130, and goes faster than my GTX ever did. Fuel economy is important to me, as it ultimately determines how much time I spend out on the water. It sounds like it would be a better choice for my conversion, despite the open cooling system. What do you guys think? Should I sell my rebuilt seadoo engine, or maybe drop it into another ski? There are hulls out there all over the place I can get cheap.
devonte007
Active Member
Just found your thread today and you definitely have some interesting projects going. As I went through the thread it reminded me of a post I saw a couple months ago; another forum member has a 1996 challenger retrofitted with a 4-tec engine:
http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?73554-rotax-1503-2004-questions&p=425804#post425804
If you did not come across this post already I thought you would find it interesting. Anyway, cool project and I look forward to reading about your future progress.
http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?73554-rotax-1503-2004-questions&p=425804#post425804
If you did not come across this post already I thought you would find it interesting. Anyway, cool project and I look forward to reading about your future progress.
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Wow! Someone beat me to it!
Man, awesome stuff. Thanks for sharing!! Interesting, they managed to use the original heat exchanger. I think I'll use my water-water that I bought. It'll make for a cleaner install. As for the gas tank, I want to use the existing one that's in there. I plan on modifying it with a large hole and have it insert just like in the 4-tecs, with screws. I may have to build an aluminum brace to go inside as this tank flexes pretty badly. Or perhaps I can somehow attach it to a fuel sender and stick in the same hole that's already there (optimal choice). We'll see. I wonder if the guy used the existing intake tunnel... I somehow doubt it'd flow enough water for my 185hp engine. Man, this has me so fired up! Can't wait to get started!!!!
Man, awesome stuff. Thanks for sharing!! Interesting, they managed to use the original heat exchanger. I think I'll use my water-water that I bought. It'll make for a cleaner install. As for the gas tank, I want to use the existing one that's in there. I plan on modifying it with a large hole and have it insert just like in the 4-tecs, with screws. I may have to build an aluminum brace to go inside as this tank flexes pretty badly. Or perhaps I can somehow attach it to a fuel sender and stick in the same hole that's already there (optimal choice). We'll see. I wonder if the guy used the existing intake tunnel... I somehow doubt it'd flow enough water for my 185hp engine. Man, this has me so fired up! Can't wait to get started!!!!
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Yea, seeing cykrus's Challenger showed me how far the pump nozzle will go if it just bolts up to the original hull. This is already a bit further than I'd like. I guess I will not extend the hull afterall. Another benefit of this is I won't have to cut/paste two hulls together. The downside is I'll have to make my own mounting points and ensure proper alignment, as well as make a new gas tank. Cykrus's boat has a stock GTX gas tank (I believe) allowing him only 16 gal. Not enough for me, I'd like closer to 30gal. But if you don't extend the hull, the engine has to go under the seats where the tank currently resides. So, I guess I'll have to weld up an aluminum tank afterall. This will also allow me to make a larger tank, make the boat balance better, and give me the opportunity to make a nice, solid mounting point for the fuel pump.
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Well, after many other things that took precedence, I'm finally back to working on my long-awaited project. Started today by cleaning out a bunch of stuff from the garage and moving my three work pices: the Boat, the Donor, and the old XP test hull. I think tomorrow I might start cutting. The big question right now is HOW TO GET THE POWER OUT. I need a taller inlet tunnel. I'm debating on doing what Trond did (http://www.**************/forums/showthread.php?t=77896&page=18) and glass in the tunnel and the three mounts. But maybe I can get away with something less invasive. Something where I can keep the transom largely intact... decisions decisions...
IDoSeaDoo
Well-Known Member
Got a little done this week. Cut the pump and mounts out of the donor hull. Currently the process of cleaning it up. I'm thinking of using just the rear mounts and the pump tunnel. I'm not sure I want to put the front mount too in like in Trond's build. I want to keep this as minimally invasive as possible to maintain the hull's original integrity. I don't think it'll be hard to build a mount up there. I have an alignment tool to ensure it comes out perfect
The trailer was blocking access to the bottom of the boat with that rear beam, so today my buddy came over and helped me build a cradle for her. I bought 4 heavy duty casters and built a movable stand for her. I reused the wood I salvaged from my DIY car-paint-booth I built to paint my fiance's honda. That car's a "beaute" now :thumbsup: but DAMN was that a long project?! It had hail damage from a bad strom in PA... but that's a different story.
Anyway, we suspended the ass-end of the boat from the ceiling using my engine crank-crane. The front we picked up with a cherry picker and just slid the trailer out. It'll be getting some new hardware as the brackets on the back are rusted away pretty bad. The boat is much more manageable now without that extra 4ft of trailer tongue to deal with :hurray:. I can roll it all around the garage as I need.
I'll post up some pics tomorrow.
The trailer was blocking access to the bottom of the boat with that rear beam, so today my buddy came over and helped me build a cradle for her. I bought 4 heavy duty casters and built a movable stand for her. I reused the wood I salvaged from my DIY car-paint-booth I built to paint my fiance's honda. That car's a "beaute" now :thumbsup: but DAMN was that a long project?! It had hail damage from a bad strom in PA... but that's a different story.
Anyway, we suspended the ass-end of the boat from the ceiling using my engine crank-crane. The front we picked up with a cherry picker and just slid the trailer out. It'll be getting some new hardware as the brackets on the back are rusted away pretty bad. The boat is much more manageable now without that extra 4ft of trailer tongue to deal with :hurray:. I can roll it all around the garage as I need.
I'll post up some pics tomorrow.
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