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A couple simple carb tuning questions...

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goofynick6

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I have a 951 1999 GTX. I just replaced all the grey fuel lines and cleaned out the carbs, filters and fuel selector valve.

First question, and the manual isn't clear on this. When they say to turn a carb adjustment screw "1 1/4 turns", do they mean one, full 360 degree revolution plus another 90 degrees? Or is 1 turn consider 180 degrees?


The ski is running great everywhere except around 10-15 mph (by the speedo). Just moving along slowly it hesitates and almost stalls and then if you gas it then it takes off with no problem. But trying to cruise slow causes lurching and hesitation. Tried some low-speed screw adjustments but no improvement.

Any tips?

Thank you,

Nick
 
1 1/4 turn is referring to full rotations from fully closed. so that would be one 360 degree turn plus 90 like you said.
 
Yes, 1 1/4 turns means one 360 turn and one 90 degree turn

I figured that, but had to be 100% sure. I adjusted them to the factory settings (per the shop manual). It feels pretty crisp/smooth except at about 10-20% throttle. I am not sure if that is a low speed screw setting or maybe the jet? I guess I'll have to play around with it some more on the water.

Suggestions are welcome though!
 
Can you tell us specifically what you did when you cleaned the carbs? Did you remove the jets? Needle/seat? Flush everything with carb cleaner? Check pop-off once put back together?
 
Turn screw clockwise by fingers until lightly seated (tool tight will damage needle and orifice) then back out by 1.25 turns. This is factory setting for 2001 BNI46 951 low speed mixture screw. I find it's very close to perfect setting, assuming pop-off is near correct(using 2.0 needle/seat + 95gram spring).

High speed mixture screw is finger tight and no backing out. I tighten mine lightly then back it out just a tiny hair in case the threads might corrode I can work it back and forth and so the needle isn't jammed into the orifice all the time.

I had a nagging lean mid-throttle bog and only after doing/checking EVERYTHING, had to change low speed jet size.
 
"Check pop-off once put back together?"

I recommend checking pop-off prior to installing the metering diaphragm, otherwise the reading will be inconsistent at best.
 
I only checked the flush measurement of the spring arm. Wasn't sure about the pop off thing yet. Starting to get a better idea of how these things work. Might have to pull them out again to test.
 
If your springs are factory spec, they aren't damaged, corroded or distorted by stretching or squashed by stepping on them or something, and your metering valve orifices are spec size, the rubber tips aren't damaged or badly groved (many actually have a lubricant coating which can wear off the rubber tip. These are red, under the silver or gray coating) and the lever arms are at the same height as the kidney-shaped jet covering plate (my arms are a gnat's butt high, no change from factory, a straight edge laid across barely lifts it off the valve needle) your results should be very close to textbook.

I firmly believe you haven't rebuilt the carb unless you replace the metering valve assy.

Obviously you won't know pop-off for sure, unless you test it. A leaky metering valve or too low pop-off will choke the cylinder with excess fuel at idle.

1.75 on the lows is a spec I've seen before, and that's where I'd start if it was that way before disassembly. If it's too far off, the idle may be rough. If it's too lean, you may experience run-away on the trailer(in this case pull choke to shut it down press stop button, hold choke till dead). You might need that choke to stop it from running away someday, so I make sure mine works properly.

Adjust for smoothest idle in water at idle speed, I like 1400 RPM, can't hurt to be slightly on rich side as long as idle doesn't load up and speed drops off. Higher idle tends to increase vacuum and draw more fuel through idle circuit, so if you like a high idle then maybe shoot for maybe a hair to the leaner on the low screws. Just as long as it doesn't load up and choke out while idling and it's smooth enough to satisfy your cadillac expectations.

My low speed mix screws are spec @ 1.25, this is the suggested starting point in my case. I have a 95gram silver spring and 2.0 metering valve seat orifice.

Just remember, pop-off pressure has a huge effect on idle mixture, so maybe yours has a different spring or metering valve seat orifice then mine, and 1.25 is on the lean side for your setup. Once you're much past 1/3 throttle, pop-off rapidly becomes less important, low speed pilot jet is coming into play. Then once past about 65-70%, the high speed circuit starts coming in. At least this is how it feels when I tuned my carbs, the book is a little off on this description, IMO. For instance, the book claims the pilot has an effect at idle, but it doesn't unless maybe it's plugged with gum, there just isn't enough fuel flowing for it to have any effect.

So if you've got a pig rich or too lean idle and the low speed screw doesn't help, go for the pop-off pressure on metering valve, the valve could be sticking in the seat if it's grooved, torn, or has trash stuck in it.
 
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If your springs are factory spec, they aren't damaged, corroded or distorted by stretching or squashed by stepping on them or something, and your metering valve orifices are spec size, the rubber tips aren't damaged or badly groved (many actually have a lubricant coating which can wear off the rubber tip. These are red, under the silver or gray coating) and the lever arms are at the same height as the kidney-shaped jet covering plate (my arms are a gnat's butt high, no change from factory, a straight edge laid across barely lifts it off the valve needle) your results should be very close to textbook.

I firmly believe you haven't rebuilt the carb unless you replace the metering needle.

Obviously you won't know pop-off for sure, unless you test it. A leaky metering valve or too low pop-off will choke the cylinder with excess fuel at idle.

1.75 on the lows is a spec I've seen before, and that's where I'd start if it was that way before disassembly. If it's too far off, the idle may be rough. If it's too lean, you may experience run-away on the trailer(in this case pull choke to shut it down press stop button, hold choke till dead). You might need that choke to stop it from running away someday, so I make sure mine works properly.

Adjust for smoothest idle in water at idle speed, I like 1400 RPM, can't hurt to be slightly on rich side as long as idle doesn't load up and speed drops off. Higher idle tends to increase vacuum and draw more fuel through idle circuit, so if you like a high idle then maybe shoot for maybe a hair to the leaner on the low screws. Just as long as it doesn't load up and choke out while idling and it's smooth enough to satisfy your cadillac expectations.

My low speed mix screws are spec @ 1.25, this is the suggested starting point in my case. I have a 95gram silver spring and 2.0 metering valve seat orifice.

Just remember, pop-off pressure has a huge effect on idle mixture, so maybe yours has a different spring or metering valve seat orifice then mine, and 1.25 is on the lean side for your setup. Once you're much past 1/3 throttle, pop-off rapidly becomes less important, low speed jet is coming into play. Then once past about 65-70%, the high speed circuit starts coming in. At least this is how it feels when I tuned my carbs, the book is a little off on this description, IMO. For instance, the book claims the pilot has an effect at idle, but it doesn't unless maybe it's plugged with gum, there just isn't enough fuel flowing for it to have any effect.

So if you've got a pig rich or too lean idle and the low speed screw doesn't help, go for the pop-off pressure on metering valve, the valve could be sticking in the seat if it's grooved, torn, or has trash stuck in it.

Thank you for the great reply. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge here.

As far as my setup goes, the needles looked to be in great shape with a black (perhaps rubber?) tip that had no damage. I had them fully removed and cleaned. I would say the springs looked silver, but didn't really inspect them as I figured they were a standard item and didn't have other spring rates available.

I will adjust my low speeds down to 1.25 and then set the idle screw to keep things around 1400 and see what happens. It is unfortunate because everywhere else in the RPM range is great. It is just when cruising in toward the dock at 10 mph and it just wants to stall.

If I am at a dead stop in the water and hit the throttle to 100% it jumps up and takes off with zero hesitation and pulls hard. If I am going 25-30 and I hit the throttle it takes off. There's just that one small range that I am trying to tune out. I am guessing that my balance between the low-speed adjusters and the idle screw are either off or I am needing a different pop-off pressure.

If I cannot make any progress tomorrow on the adjustment screws then I will have to pull the carbs this weekend and check pop-off pressures. Wish I had done it the other day when I had them out!! Live and learn.

Nick
 
Yeah, I made a few changes to the wording, to clarify.

I'll go up and re-read your posts to see if anything strikes a chord, might think of something else.

Okay, so I think you said you've got a lean off-idle.

One thing it could be is aged metering diaphragms. These should be almost as soft as rose petals, not dry and stiff like cardboard. If these are stiff, the idle and off dile fuel mixture will always be too rich or too lean depending on which way that stiff diaphragm is being oil-canned.

The other, probably more common possibility could be an accelerator(acc) pump issue. This little pump attached to the PTO carb(rear carb) shoots a shot of fuel down into the carbs when you crack the throttle open, there's a cam on the throttle shaft that pushes the lever which in turn pushes the acc pump diaphragm plunger. The reason is, it takes an instant for air velocity to increase through the carb bore enough to begin pulling fuel from the chamber through the pilot jet and through the three transition ports just above the throttle plate. Mid-range circuit, I'll call these three transition ports, b/c it's a long transition from when they begin to flow and the main circuit gets going. During this time when the throttle is first cracked open, you might notice a lean stumble if the accelerator pump didn't shoot this small volume of fuel the instant you begin moving the throttle open.

So you might be wondering how to determine if the acc pump shot is adequate? First, look down into the carb throats with a flashlight and watch as you actuate the throttles from off idle. You should see a healthy shot in both carbs, like out of a windex bottle pump or something. Not just a little dribble.

Second, if that looks good and the lever gap is there but very small, you may as well look elsewhere.

So if you crack the throttle open a hair and it immediately feels strong (as if the acc shot of fuel was there and by the time it got used up the mixture went lean again) then I'd have to think of confirming pop-off or as a test, opening up the mixture screws a bit. Those screws are really only there to adjust throttle-closed idle mixture, so pop-off would be my first focus b/c the vacuum should have built enough on the first burst of power to have begun drawing fuel through the transition ports and also pull the metering diaphragm into the chamber to open the metering valve. If that spring is too strong, the delay could be too long. Lowering pop-off would especially be in my focus if the factory air box was long gone. If pop-off is too low, you'll have too much fuel coming through the low speed circuit, maybe even enough to dribble out of the high speed venturi, while idling. Even a new metering valve can leak with engine vibration if the pop-off is set too low, possibly resulting in flooding out from excess fuel.

Accelerator pump:

The acc pump nozzles may be gummed, or even the acc pump timing(assuming it's a lean condition) may be too late. I didn't have any lean issues coming off idle, but the acc pump cam lever gap to acc pump diaphragm plunger wasn't .0050 like it's supposed to be, there was no gap at all. So, I adjusted it to make sure the acc diaphragm plunger could return to it's stop, just a hair of play there after adjusting idle speed. I'm sure that's why they spec a gap there so the pump can draw in a full charge, considering the shape of the cam and all. I just put about 0.0020 there to give me a little room to adjust idle and still let the diaphragm spring fully reload the acc. pump. I can wiggle the lever freely back and forth just a hair, as it is now, just took the tension off of it.

The accelerator pump wasn't my problem, despite the fact it wasn't properly adjusted for my throttle plate position. Maybe the original idle was 1200RPM, I don't kow, all I know is it was too low for my tastes, I set it to 1400 and checked it didn't idle much more that 3000 RPM out of water, it idles about 3050-3100 out of water. If it ever runs away, I'll probably be wondering if a crankshaft seal is leaking air.

Anyway, my lean bog was nearly just out of idle too, but it didn't lean die easily, down there. This bog extended just past 60% into the throttle, with RPM over 3000, if you jammed the throttle it wouldn't tend to bog but if I moved the throttle slowly, it wasn't until past 4000 before I got out of that lean region. At the dock, if I played with the throttle enough, it would occasionally lean die, mostly around 3000, like with the bucket down and hitting it to slow the boat.

I cleaned, checked, rechecked, everything multiple times. Finally went up two sizes on the pilots to 80, and now she pulls like a mule with no hesitation anywhere in the throttle range. The second thing I did while in there b/c I like my 2-strokes fat anyway, was put an 80 gram spring on the diaphragm needle(Okay, I made a little white lie in my earlier post re:95gr spring, for which I don't really feel guilty). I like to make big changes.

So, the way it's tuned now, I can hear just a hair of four-stroking a bit off idle, like maybe around 2500 RPM. I'm guessing the diaphragm metering valve opens just a bit too early(80gr spring). It's not a performance issue, just I can hear the extra fuel four-stroke and clear out, can barely even feel it less than a second, if that, when I move the throttle slowly open to accelerate from idle to "no wake" speed.

So next time I'm in there, I might install the original 95gr silver spring and call it done.

2-strokes: Go rich, and come back till it no longer is too rich. I like a bit of smoke along with an occasional touch of four-stroking, that way I know she's not lean and she's getting the fuel necessary to carry the oil.
 
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My acc. Pump is good and adjusted properly. I tried the low speed adjusters at 1.25 turns and idle at 1400 and no change seen.

In my best attempt, I filmed the situation with my phone. Hard to hear over the water noise, but I demonstrate the slow speed issue and how it can take off and run great at other speeds.

Input is appreciated. Also, thank you again for the help in previous posts.

[video=youtube;A1o4g0O6LDs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1o4g0O6LDs&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/video]

Nick
 
Hard to tell from the vid, but I an holding constant throttle when going slow, then I give a little throttle to keep it from dying out.
 
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