99 GTX RFi with TWC-03 oil... crazy dealer/mechanic ??

[Tsunami82]

99 GTX RFi with TWC-03 oil... crazy dealer/mechanic ?? (PICS INSIDE)

Hello everyone! Im new here and I just got a 99 GTX RFi with 140hours on it. I did some reading on the forum before and the low fuel consumption on this ski made me go for it.

I was going to fill up the oil tank when I read the Bombardier Warning on the side saying "Never use NMMA TC-W3 oil" which is exactly the type of oil that the dealer gave me. He even told me to add some on the fuel tank ??!
I have read in the forum that I must use 100% Synthetic oil on this engine, so my guess is that this dealer that is also the mechanic and Sea-Doo official representative for the Algarve (South of Portugal), does not really know what he has been doing in the last 20 years.

I dont know what to do... he gave me 6 months warranty. Will it kill the engine if I had some oil on the fuel tank?

I am using 95 Unleaded fuel on the ski. Its my first ski.. I was afraid to fill up the tank at the highway gas station... the hole its to big for the hose, so Im afraid that the fuel will spill out. How do you guys do it?

Congratulations for this great forum! Its very organised and full of usefull information. Great job :thumbsup:

Cheers

 

[stevexp2]

The TC-W3 will not kill the engine but it is not recommended by the manufacturer. Your dealer may have used it for many years and never seen a problem - but the manufacturer tells us not to use it so don't.

You can mix the synthetic with TC-W3 but I would remove as much as I can from the oil tank first and then fill it up with synthetic and never go back. It's what the manufacturer tells us to do and they really do know best.

As for filling the ski, just go ahead and use the regular gas pump - the RFI uses regular, the DI required premium. The pump will still cut off when full even with the extra large hole

 

[Tsunami82]

Thank you for your help Steve! Appreciate it

Tomorrow Im going back to the shop to get synthetic. Not sure what type of oil is inside the ski but I guess it must be TC-W3.

Maybe I will keep mixing till it finishes. Would that be a problem? If not I have to take the ski back to the garage and tell them to change the oil completly. I dont know how to do it.

 

[Tsunami82]

Ok, I went to the shop and got 2 liters of Bombardier XP-S oil. It was the only synthetic oil they had in the shop. He says that he only uses that oil when the ski is on warranty. After that he only uses TC-W3 :/

I guess my engine with 12 years and 140hours must be a bit "eaten" on the inside. later in the afternoon Im going to run it for the first time. Wish me luck!

Cheers

 

[Dr Honda]

The TC-W3 will not kill the engine but it is not recommended by the manufacturer. Your dealer may have used it for many years and never seen a problem - but the manufacturer tells us not to use it so don't.

You can mix the synthetic with TC-W3 but I would remove as much as I can from the oil tank first and then fill it up with synthetic and never go back. It's what the manufacturer tells us to do and they really do know best.

As for filling the ski, just go ahead and use the regular gas pump - the RFI uses regular, the DI required premium. The pump will still cut off when full even with the extra large hole

NO !!!!!!!!!!!!! absolutely wrong.

TC-w3 oil in a 951 or 800 RFI WILL kill the engine. It's not an imediate problem... but you will probably reduce the life of the engien by half.

Also... NEVER mix differnt types of 2-stroke oils !!!! EVER !!!! Unlike automotive oils... 2-stroke oils are not a standardized mix of additives. That's why we have major differences in the certifications. Mixing 2-stroke oils can cause problems. The worst of them is that the mixed oil can turn into Jello, and plug the oil injection. When that happens... your engine dies.

If you want the ski to live past the 6 mo warranty that the dealer gave you... drain the oil in the ski... and refill it with a CERTIFIED API-TC, full synthetic oil.

 

[Dr Honda]

Here's what can happen when you mix 2-stroke oils.

 

[Tsunami82]

This is just a bad dream!! I cant believe everything hapens to me when I buy second hand stuff.. grrrrrr
When I bought the oil I asked him if it would be a problem to mix them, and he said no! Im F**** mad now.

How fast does it take to get jello like that? I have already mixed them.. and wasted money on the XP-S oil for nothing now! I have arranged with friends and family to test the ski in the evening. Would it be really bad if I run it like that for a coule of hours?

Dr. Honda, thank you for that very important information and sorry to ask you this but, can I trust 100% on what you are saying? Are you a professional mechanic?

If you are right I cannot understand how this dealer can be the official representative of Sea-doo!! :s

P.S.: how about adding half liter of oil on the fuel tank? Is that really bad aswell? He told me to do that just in case the auto-lub wouldn't work.

 

[JJinSC]

Trust me, I understand your frustration regarding this. But, let me assure you that Dr. Honda knows what he is talking about. The dealer that sold you that machine apparently doesn't know what he is talking about. If you want additional assurance, Go to BRP's webpage and read for yourself or better yet, contact them by phone and while you are at it, report what that dealership is doing.

If it were me, I would take it back to the dealer, demand he purge and clean the oil and fuel system and replace it with SeaDoo XPS full synthetic Oil, extend the warranty or ask for money back. That's my .02 worth

 

[JJinSC]

Oh yeah, I would run that ski until this was settled.

 

[JJinSC]

Here is a link to electronically inquire from BRP. Personally, I'd call them. http://corp.brp.com/en-us/customer-service

 

[Dr Honda]

This is just a bad dream!! I cant believe everything hapens to me when I buy second hand stuff.. grrrrrr
When I bought the oil I asked him if it would be a problem to mix them, and he said no! Im F**** mad now.

Well... either he doesn't know... or doesn't care. You bought a used ski, and he wants to make money.

How fast does it take to get jello like that? I have already mixed them.. and wasted money on the XP-S oil for nothing now! I have arranged with friends and family to test the ski in the evening. Would it be really bad if I run it like that for a coule of hours?

The Jello thing is an extreme issue. But it can happen. Regardless, the TC-w3 is not good for the ski. it's up to you if you want to run it... but if it was my ski... the oil would be drained, and changed to a Synthetic API-TC oil. I personally use XPS because I can get it local, and at a good price. BUT, any certified API-TC is fine. (you still dont' want to mix brands)

Dr. Honda, thank you for that very important information and sorry to ask you this but, can I trust 100% on what you are saying? Are you a professional mechanic?

I would call myself a Semi-Pro. My main business is building custom Motorcycles, but during the summer, I fix all the stuff that the local dealer messes up... or "Doesn't have time" to work on. (Check my signature line)

If you are right I cannot understand how this dealer can be the official representative of Sea-doo!! :s

P.S.: how about adding half liter of oil on the fuel tank? Is that really bad aswell? He told me to do that just in case the auto-lub wouldn't work.

Well... is he a Seadoo Dealer... or was he just selling a used ski? Does he sell other brands? Kawi, and Yamaha both allow TC-w3 oils... but there engine life sux. The thing is with TC-w3, is that it's more environmentally friendly, but it offers less protection. It was also designed to be used in large outboard engines. Think about it... an inline 6 cyl Merc only put out 115 to 130 HP We get that out of a small 2 cly engine. (We need better oil) Even the newer V6 Merc's only may 240 HP. BUT... they are big, and only turn 5500 RPM. a 951 seadoo is turning 7200.

Oh... also... were you talking with the sales guy? Most of the time... they hardly even know what they are selling... and let's face it... most mechanics turn a wench because they don't have enough brains to do anything else.

FYI... Before opening my shop... I spen 8 years as an R&D Chemist. I also hold degrees in Biology, and Physics. (so... I'm I qualified? :thumbsup: )




Here's my shop:

 

[Tsunami82]

Thank you JJinSC !

I want to do what you just told me but I dont want to get into a war with the Dealer or he will become very difficult if I need to use the warranty. I know a story of a previous client that had to go to court with this dealer. I dont know who won in court!

Im just "between a rock and a hard place" ...

How hard is it to change the oil on this watercraft?

 

[Dr Honda]

Thank you JJinSC !

I want to do what you just told me but I dont want to get into a war with the Dealer.......

How hard is it to change the oil on this watercraft?

Exactly... Since you can't trust them... do it your self.


1) Pump out the oil in the tank.
2) Remove the oil line at the fitting below the carbs. (Yes, this will make a mess)
3) Once drained well... hook the hose back up.
4) In the hose feeding the injection pump... there is a filter. Replace it, and drain the oil out of that hose.
5) open the bleed screw on the oil pump to fill the filter, and feed hose.
6) fill the tank with a synth API-TC oil

EXTRA:

7) Add 2 oz/gal oil to your main fuel tank. Since you were working on the oil system... it will ad some safety if there are any air bubbles in the hoses. This is not needed if you bleed the system very well... but I always do it to a ski I work on.

 

[stevexp2]

I'm always surprised by the extreme views that people take on forums - not just on seadooforum but others too.

I have never seen the mixing problems that Tony posted - I suspect that it was never created by mixing of 2 stroke oils - looks as though someone added something other than 2 stroke oil to the tank.

If you read the bottles you will see "Compatible with mineral and synthetic TC-W3-type two-cycle oils, however, mixing two-cycle oils should be minimized." - which is what I said.

Someone give evidence that TC-W3 will kill a 951 in such a short time - it would take hours of WOT operation and zero Rave maintenance to cause serious damage - in fact the biggest issue would be rave valve plugging and not metal to metal wear. The film strength of TC-W3 is still very good.

So let's not try and scare the **** out of this guy - he probably still has a very good ski - just a lousy mechanic and I stand by what I said.

 

[JJinSC]

Thank you JJinSC !

I want to do what you just told me but I dont want to get into a war with the Dealer or he will become very difficult if I need to use the warranty. I know a story of a previous client that had to go to court with this dealer. I dont know who won in court!

Im just "between a rock and a hard place" ...

How hard is it to change the oil on this watercraft?

It's not too hard. The hardest part in my opinion is reconnecting the hoses and making sure all the air is blead out of the lines. Use the bleed valve to purge air. Use 40:1 mix in first tank of gas afterwards just to be safe, but I wouldn't want to do this if there is already TC-W3 mixed in with the gas. Syphon that out first. The hoses all have clamps and the tank is just strapped in with rubber straps (or at least on my model). Just make sure you note which hose goes where and put them back accordly. Drain all the oil out and wipe/clean out the tank. Also, replace the in-line oil filter.

EDIT: I see Dr. Honda has already covered you.

 

[Tsunami82]

Dr. Honda, thank you so much for all your help!! Really appreciate it... I just wish I was living in a different country. This is just surreal!

Your shop looks amazing!! Beautiful bike :coolgleam:

I have friends that came from Uk and its their last weekend here. I promissed I would take the kids on the ski.. so I think I will run it only for a couple of hours and then monday I will take it to the dealer to make a complete change of the oil and filter. Or I will just do it myself if its not to dificult. :/

 

[JJinSC]

I'm always surprised by the extreme views that people take on forums - not just on seadooforum but others too.

Forums are a public place for sharing information, ideas, personal experience and opinions regardless of how extreme they are. That should be no suprise. What may seem extreme to one person, may not to another. It depends on ones personal perspective to the issue. It is up to the recipient to take it all in, determine what is credible and applicable to his perspective/situation and make the best informed decision they can. I find great value in this format. Thanks Seadooforum.com!!!

 

[Tsunami82]

Guys, thanks a lot for all your help! You have been very helpfull :thumbsup:

Steve please dont worrie. I have been in many forums before and I know that there can be a huge difference in opinions for the same subject. In the end its always up to me to decide what to do.

The oil changing process seems to me a bit complicated, specially because I dont have any tools or DIY guide with pictures. And I will panic easily if I do something wrong...

Dr.Honda (aka Tony?), you seem to be more then qualified for the subject, and yes he is a Sea-doo dealer and he is also the mechanic. He has two big shops in this area and he is the only Sea-doo dealer in a range of 200 miles. He is also the official dealer of Yamaha and kawasaki!

Anyway, Im going for a run tomorrow. Cant wait any longer.. specialy when I promissed the kids I would take them for a spin!

 

[Tsunami82]

Okay guys, just to tell you that I've add 2 hours on the ski this weekend and everything seemed to work fine, and the kids really enjoyed it

The only problem I had was that there were times I had to press the throttle for the engine to start. I think only twice it started by just pressing the Start/Stop button.

Is this normal?

Also the speedo is always up and down. I could never know exactly at what speed I was going... I also realised that this engine can be really loud on low revs. Could that be the wearing ring?

Also this hull is amazing.. very very stable! I was impressed. I really like the ski now. I was not sure If I was going to like it, but all went well in the end. Im very pleased for the moment.

Is there any way I can know for sure that the oil is beeing pumped in normaly?

Cheers

 

[Dr Honda]

Glad everything is working.

Speedo: They suck... and they never work right. (even when they were new) So... not much you can do there. (sorry)

Starting: It's very normal to have to crack the throttle to make it start. It's partly because the bilge is full of warm, wet, fuel filled air. As long as it's starting in just a few seconds of cranking... you are fine. NOW... if you have to hold the throttle wide open, and crank for 5 or 6 seconds... and then it coughs and sputters as it's comming to life... that's a problem.

Sound: Probably normal... but... pop the seat off, and look over all the rubber parts in the exhaust system, and make sure they are not bulged or ripped.

 

[Dr Honda]

One last thing......


If you mixed the XPS with what was in the tank... let the oil get very low (almost empty) and then change the oil filter. That way.... if there is a problem... your filter will still be flowing.

Then top the tank with fresh XPS (or other API-TC) full syth oil

 

[Tsunami82]

Thank you Tony! :thumbsup:

Regarding starting, I just had to crack the throttle a little bit and it starts imediatly.

I forgot to mention one thing. In the first run I could not stop the engine imediatly, I think the connections on the start/stop button might be a bit faulty. I ended up getting to close to the shore and some sand might have been sucked in.

My question is if that sand can ruin the engine or it will just clog the pipes from the engine cooling system, and the worse thing that could happen would be the continous beeping for overheating warning? The dealer told me that if he would found any sand inside he wouldn't give me warranty.

I also have some sea water inside the hull... how do you guys take that water out? Do you put the hose pipe inside the ski, next to the engine to clean with fresh water?

Sorry about these rookie questions. Its my first ski

 

[Dr Honda]

If you are riding in the ocean... you will get sand in the engine since it's in the water. BUT... if you ran it up on the shore once... it wont' hurt your engine. The problem is, when you get someone who always rides up on the sand... and even worse... is when someone will use reverse to get back off the sand.

If you did it once... not an issue... but make sure you flush out the engine after you are done. Actually... since you are using it in salt water... you need to flush the engine after every use.

The water in the bilge... once it's on the trailer, tip the nose up, and spray everything with fresh water, and it will all go out the drain plug. Then... once it's dry... spray EVERYTHING in the bilge with a protective silicone spray oil. I don't worry about getting all the water out of the bilge during the normal riding season if it's fresh water. Never leave salt water in there. If you are getting ready to park it for the winter... use a shop-vac (wet/dry) to suck all the water out.


Since there may be an issue with the start/stop button... just pull the lanyard when you get close to the shore.

 

[Tsunami82]

Thank you so much Tony! You really help a lot of people out here. Its always nice to find guys like you in Forums. If you ever come to Portugal (Algarve) I will buy you some drinks. Its a great place for summer hollidays.

I will upload some pics later today.

Pulling out the lanyard... duhh... dont know why I didn't thought about that before!

I did flush the engine, but I dont have the adaptor for the hose, so I dont think it flushed it that well. Im going to buy it tomorrow. In the manual it says I should rev it to 3500RPM when flushing.. but its hard to keep the revs so low, it jumps to 4250 as soon as I crack the throttle.

When you say spray everything with fresh water you mean the engine and electrics aswell? I will take some pictures of the inside before I do that.

Can I use WD40 after cleaning with fresh water, or should I buy a specific protective silicone spray?

 

[Dr Honda]

Thank you so much Tony! You really help a lot of people out here. Its always nice to find guys like you in Forums. If you ever come to Portugal (Algarve) I will buy you some drinks. Its a great place for summer hollidays.

Don't leave the country much... but thanks for the offer.

I did flush the engine, but I dont have the adaptor for the hose, so I dont think it flushed it that well. Im going to buy it tomorrow. In the manual it says I should rev it to 3500RPM when flushing.. but its hard to keep the revs so low, it jumps to 4250 as soon as I crack the throttle.

Just let it idle.

When you say spray everything with fresh water you mean the engine and electrics aswell? I will take some pictures of the inside before I do that.

Yep. Everything.

Can I use WD40 after cleaning with fresh water, or should I buy a specific protective silicone spray?

I don't like it... but yes, that fine. The reason I don't like it is that it will attack some plastics and rubber over time. Silicon spray won't.