98 xp951 ltd - wont rev out

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flip6

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Hi All.

New to this forum and from what i've read so far it's all good.

I've wanted a ski for about 15 years and finally moved to new zealand where there is heaps of water so bought a xp 951 and love it.

Had some issues when first bought it and fit carb recon kits and it goes well. It's standard running 98 octane fuel. I've only put about 3 tanks of gas through it.

Problem is it only revs to about 6700 which is about 500 rpm shy of the rev limiter.

Plugs are tan, Compression about 130psi on both. Mechanic reckons it sounds fine. Impellor has few minor nicks but nothing major.

Prob needs pump overall but want to get engine reving out before i bother with pump clearances.

Any suggestions of what to try would be appreciated, Thanks, Phil
 
Re-clean the internal carb filters, you don't want any lean issues! Check battery
voltage, then start and rev to 5500 rpm and recheck voltage.
 
Ok just checked voltages - about 12.5v without engine running and 14.5v when engine at 5500. What i would expect but not sure - any suggestions ?

Had ski out on real flat water so had a chance to see whats going on.

From medium to full throttle ski will initially rev to 68000 for about 20 seconds then drops back to about 6500.

Revs will then keep dropping back to 6200 and then up to 6600.

Feels like fuel starvation but not sure how. Anyhting else could give the same feeling ?

Reaches "full" revs before throttle is fully open. i.e opening throttle more doesent increase revs so not cable adjustment issue.

Plugs are perfect colour after going full noise for half a mile and shutting off ski and checking ski. Medium tan brown. So not blocked filter issue. (check plugs after every outing)

What can i check ??

Also at 5000 rpm ski indicates 50 kph, is this normal ?

Would really appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks,

Phil
 
LEAN is your worst nightmare. Pull internal carb filters and clean, then try an
adjustment to needle valves next time out. Hope this helps.
 
Yeah i know from motor bike days what lean can do - holed pistons and bits of piston down the exhaust.:(

The carb filters were changed 3 tanks ago. I've no reason to think they are blocked. If plugs are good and tan coloured i'm not sure why there is a concern of lean running. Could you please explain the reasoning ? I thought plug colour was the indicator.

Adjusting the needle valve - is that bending the tab so that the carbs get fuel at lower spring pressure ? I pressure tested the new needle valves after they were installed and they were in spec with the manual. Must admit the pressure gauge was a cheap bike pump so i couldn't swear on the accuracy.

RAVE valves seem ok but no idea if they are opening properly. Seems they are powered off crankcase pressure and check valve in the line mitigates crankcase positive pressure. Seems straight forward - do the check valves ever not work ? Adjustment seems to be red top wound all the way in - is that right ? Is it likely that a problem with rave valves would effect both rave valves since both plugs are the same colour

I read somewhere that the water control valve might give same symptoms - how do you check this - seem to be factory calibrated - is there a procedure to check it ?

I appreciate any advice or suggestions since i have no experience with skis

Thanks

Phil
 
The RAVE, (Rotax Adjustable Variable Exhaust) valves are located above the exhaust valve. There are 2 of them per engine. They are round with a red adjustment screw in the middle. It has a clip that holds it together. How they work is that they open the exhaust port larger as the engine rpm's increase. When the rpm's drop down so do the RAVE valves. They work on the principle of the pressure of the exhaust system. Rpm's increase, pressure increases and the valve opens, rpm's drop pressure drops, Valve closes. They should be de-carbonized annual. To disassemble the rave valves, remove the spring clip on top, remove the black cover. There is a spring under the cover. Remove the piston by turning it with a metric socket. On the bottom of the piston is the rubber "Bellows" be careful with the small retaining spring that hold the bellows on the piston. Remove the 2 allen screws that hold the base on the cylinder. Remove the base and gasket. The long valve won't fall in the cylinder just pull it out. There is an o ring under the base, on the shaft of the guillotine valve. Be careful to see how it came apart as it has to go back together that same way again. On the base, notice the notch that it is facing down. Clean all the carbon off the guillotine valve. I use carb cleaner and 400 grit paper. A large wire wheel also works real well. Check the bellows for any small pin holes. If so replace it. If not, reassemble it on the clean guillotine valve, and install it back on the engine the same way it came apart. The guillotine valve only fits one way. The one closest to the exhaust pipe will come off differently then the other one. You will have to remove the allen screws and turn the base so it clears the exhaust pipe. I would do one at a time in case you forget how it goes back together again. This way you can look at the other one and copy it. Do both engines 2 per engine. Take your time and if you have questions give us a shout. We'll be here to help you out.
A loose fit is nessesary and normal though. The valves get very hot and expand, so loose clearances are necessary. But if the shafts have any wear on them, or the holes in the housings are getting oval shaped, you need to replace them. An up-grade "slotted rave" is now available and works excellent!
The water regulator (WR), It will change the timing of when water gets injected into the pipe, which changes the performance a bit. It will not make your boat faster, but is an aid to the accelleration curve. Typically, the WR red cap is the opposite of where the RAVE caps are set. So, if the raves are adjusted outward, the WR cap in adjusted inward or vise versa. Adjusting the WR spring tension valve will either just delay or speed up when the valve opens.
If the RAVE valves are dirty it will not rev up correctly and could be causing your problem. On 787 engines the red adjuster knob should be flush with the top of the cover, for 951 engines it should be fully tightened in the cover bore. at that setting the pipe is dried out somewhat allowing the engine to rev higher.Changing the adjustment will only change the amount of water that is injected into the headpipe. Having said that, if you were to actually completely pinch off the water line from the regulator to the headpipe, the exhaust chamber would overheat and melt the hoses. That's about as catastrophic as it would get. The engine itself (or the cooling to the engine) would not be affected at all.
pressure line runs from....... pulse fitting under carbs to check valve to rave solenoid, rave solenoid actuates raves around 4500ish rpm by opening pressure to diaphragm. closes by solenoid opening to atmosphere on most all 951's. remove, it should move freely in housing. if not inspect and clean. the shop manual has some spew about no parts wearing, but diaphragm can tear, piston shaft can wear and not seal on oring causing leak/black oily goo..... it takes very little pressure to actuate valves, pull line and pressurize with pop off or blow hard. Clean any accumulation of sand out of the small hose going to pipe belly & make sure there is no blockage in the fitting with A wire or pointed tool. You can feel a surge at
about 4400 rpm operating range when the raves open.
 
Ok stripped and cleaned the RAVES. Fair bit of carbon on them. Rebuilt them and they seem to move a lot better by blowing into the pipe. They seem all good.

My manual shows on the 947 that the RAVES get their positive pressure from the crankcase using a check valve to mitigate the negative pressure.

This positive pressure can be put to atmoshere by a solenoid which is the electrical item that directly controls the RAVE open or close. Solenoid closed - positive pressure on RAVE so it can open.

Understand the diagram understand the manual - great.

Except when i follow the pipes off my solenoid i can find the vent to atmosphere and the feed to the RAVES. However the pipe that according to the manual goes to the crank case on my ski goes to the two stroke oil container ?????? Specifically it joins at the oil level sensor switch.

Very confused now. Anybody out there can enlighten me ???
 
Popped down to my local ski shop and poked around another 951 motor.

Turns out the previous owner had randomly attached the positive pressure feed for the raves to the vent on the two stroke oil container.

MORON

So the raves have never worked. I kept noticing the oil container was getting sucked in becaase the vent was effectively blocked. I even kept undoing the lid. There was a chance the of oil starvation.

The raves get their positive pressure from the crank cases. That attachment point hadn't been blocked off so the crank cases were vented to atmosphere so they were sucking air (and water sometimes) which means risk of lean and bang.

Reckon i was lucky to find it before one of many things destroyed the ski.

Just waiting for a new check valve and rev out problem might be fixed
 
Ok replaced check valve and connected raves so they are now working.

Took ski for a quick test and not that impressed on difference.

Peak revs in salt water 6800 rpm. Top speed 55mph indicated. Not really any better than when raves not working

Acceleration maybe a bit smoother and ability to increase revs better.

With no rave valves working ski could pull biscuits and wake boarder.

What would be the difference if raves not opening ?

with raves apparently working not much better. Not sure they are working. checked control solenoid - checked positive pressure form crank - cleaned raves. All good.

when should raves open on a 951 - manual just says "according to revs and acceleration"

Thanks,

Phil
 
compression should be more like 150 psi
low compression will make a engne run rich
are the high speed air screws closed? all seadoos run them closed
good luck
mud
 
You should feel the power surge around 4400 rpm.
By adding or reducing spring pressure with the adjusters, you sligthly change when the valves activate and sometimes that is just enough to eliminate a bog in the midrange. At the same time, the water regulator valve is starting to move, reducing water going into the pipe. Those two things together both effect torque output of the motor. If it hits too early, it will be sluggish, not bad, but a bit sluggish. If too late, you are wasting time getting to max rpm. It is a balancing act to get them in the perfect place. As water is reduced and the raves retract, the power band is moved from more low end power to the upper areas of the power band where rpm and the horsepower from those extra rpm replaces torque. Check for any fumes from exhaust, as a
small leak into the engine compartment could kill the top end rpm.
 
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Thanks Bill,

RAVes are adjusted according to manual - all the way in so they are opening as late as they are able. Water valve all the way out so reducing water as soon as it is able.

RAVES on my 951 are controlled electronic via computer and solenoid valve. When does the solenoid open ?

So if literally the raves were not opening at all - how would the ski run ?

I'm dissapointed in the effect of fixing them. Suppose i was expecting a noticeable benefit in in having rave valves that were working as opposed to not opening at all

I'll check for that exhaust leak.


Mud - on carbs i'm aware of low speed adjustment, high speed adjustment and tickover adjustment. Define closed - my high speed scews are wound in and backed off whatever the manual says. Might be 2 1/2 turns backed off.

What should a 98 951 xp rev to in salt water - Mine does 6800 - what's the norm ?
 
high speed screws should be closed, closed means closed
only the low speed screw should be turned out
if you have the high speed screws opened , then that could be your problem!
double check your manual and high speed screws
run them all the way in
mud
 
Bypass....

high speed screws should be closed, closed means closed
only the low speed screw should be turned out
if you have the high speed screws opened , then that could be your problem!
double check your manual and high speed screws
run them all the way in
mud

The low speed screws in the Mikuni floatless carb are an adjustment for air/fuel ratio. The high speed screw is actually a by-pass around the high speed jet, that follows a different path around it. Therefore, this by-pass should always remain closed.

The only time it should be used is when you mod. And then, only to determine if you need to rejet to a larger main. Replace that jet to the next size up, then close that bypass.
 
Carb adjustments

To say that all seadoo high speed adjustment screws should always be closed is incorrect. In this case (98 951) the seadoo spec book calls for 0 turns out of the high speed screw for the mag carb and 1/4 turns out of the high speed screw for the PTO carb. There are several other cases in the spec book that call for the high speed screw to be open "X" amount of turns.
DAWG
 
High speed bypass?

I didn't look that up in this partcular shop manual but I've known you a long time, so I believe you.

If you look at the way this carb is designed though, it seems a better solution to allowing more fuel to the engine would be to increase the size of the jet.

I don't have my shop manual handy but will love to take a peak at that when I do. I think it's still safe to say, the largest percentage of the high speed bypass screws on our Rotax motors are suppose to remain closed.:cheers:
 
Carb mixture screws

You are correct SNIPE. The majority of high speed screws are closed.
My info came from the 1988 thru 2002 SeaDoo specification booklet. P.N. 219 100 131. If I'm not sure a carb has the factory jets in it... I pick up this book.
If I need to know the test values of a stator .. I pick up this book. Engine specs, torques, impeller pitch, capacities, etc.....in this book. This book does not have jet boat specs.
DAWG
 
service manual v.s. spec book

I looked at the shop manual and SNIPE is correct. The shop manual says "0" turns out on the PTO carb high speed screw. The spec book calls for 1/4 turn out. When I look up 1997 SPX GSX and GTX (all have 787 engines) the shop manual says "0" turns out on the PTO high speed screw. The spec book calls for 1/2 turn out. This spec book was published in 2002. It states that info in the book includes technical updates. So maybe that is the reason for the difference. Of course it also states that Bombardier is not responsible for any mistakes in the spec book so maybe that is the reason!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway, sorry for any confusion that I may have caused by quoting the Bombardier spec book. I"d trust the shop manual.
DAWG
 
HS bypass...

Yeah, was going to come in to tell you, I could not find one 951 motor that was set up to run that high speed bypass open. All that I read said they are suppose to be closed.

I don't know what spec sheet you have but I think you might want to do cross references for anything you use it for. It could just be outdated.

I have an old shop manual that states we are suppose to run the RAVE adjustment caps all the way in. But, when I signed up for this site, I found a supplement that changed that. It now states that we need to run them flush to the cap. So, this stuff is changing regularly.

I would look into the Mikuni shop manual and see what they are suggesting. I'd take that Mikuni manual over the shop manual.
 
Geeze guys nothing like making life simple :)

My shop manual for a 98 XP - says - turn high speed screws in until a slight resistance is felt and turn them out 2 turns.

My understanding is then run ski on water at full noise and turn it off - then check plugs - open or close screw according to plug colour. If for example screw needs opening too much then increase the jet size. My plugs are spot on on factory setting.

RAVES are wound all the way in according to manual - is this right ?

Yeah take on board that compression is down and sometime in near future needs a top end rebuild.

Main question is - with RAVES connected or not i don't really notice a big difference in performance. What would be the difference in performance if RAVES working or not working ?

Took my 9 year old out tonight on my ski. Let him drive (with lanyard attached to me) for about 5 kliometers. He loved it and i will never forget the experience. Fantastic.
 
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