95 XP Tries to start but wont.

[NickCawks]

So about a month ago I had my XP out on the water and it was running fine. I friend hopped on and then never came back. I ended up swimming out to him and pull him in. He said the engine had died on him around 6 times. Each time it took longer to start until finally it wouldn't anymore. I figured he flooded it, cut the gas, and tried to start it. it would try to start but just didn't seem like there was enough left in the battery. Thinking the battery was dead we loaded it up and took it home. Where I promptly pulled the battery out and put it on the charger.

it sat for a while and I didn't get around to testing it until the following weekend. When I did, with a full battery I got the same results. engine starts to turn, but just kind of gives up. it makes a sound almost like there is an intermittent connection in the wiring.

Here is a link to a short clip of what it is doing: Link.

Now I am pretty sure there is an electrical problem happening so I get to work
1st: Tried a different battery - Same result
2nd: replaced battery cables and starter cable - Same result
3rd: Since they are cheap and readily available I just went ahead and replaced the solenoid - Same result
4th: Found a brand new starter for a fairly low price so I just went ahead and swapped it on - Same result

In addition to all of this I have:
-Jumped the solenoid - Starter and Crank spin freely
-Tested the start/stop switch for continuity - It passed
-Tested safety lanyard switch for continuity - It passed
-Checked all fuses including the ones to my bilge pump and TrimFix power wire - All looked fresh as the day they were put in
-At this point, I was running out of ideas, so I checked all the connections in the box - None were loose

Just hoping for some insight. Pretty much everything in this ski is brand new (the starter was one of the last things). So new, I still haven't even finished the motor's break-in period. Hoping to get this thing on the water before the season is up!

 

[SIMPLEARKANSAN]

Compression?

 

[Matt Braley]

Compression?

Right. Something is getting tight on you. Maybe your lucky and the pump ingested water and is seizing up on you otherwise it's the most likely a failed engine.

 

[NickCawks]

The engine is brand new with half a tank through it I'm really hope that is not that case.

Alson I can freely spin the the fly wheel and it feels the same as before I installed it. As well as when I jump the solenoid the starter spins the crank

I will compression test shortly

 

[NickCawks]

compression check came back great. Both cylinders holding over 100 psi I believe. My compression tester reads in KPA. they both got to 700 KPA.

While I was doing this I tried to crank it with the plugs out (no idea why I haven't thought to try this yet). It seems to spin with a little less resistance, but it didn't spray any gas out even though the cylinders smell VERY strongly of gas.

 

[NickCawks]

I took a clip of what its doing with the plugs out.

Link here

I notice that the beeper keeps beeping throughout the entire clip. I've also had trouble with the beeper being intermittent and only working when it feels like it. Perhaps it's shorting out the system somehow?

If my pump ingested water and is seizing. How do I verify and then fix that?

 

[mwat65]

700 Kpa is only 101 psi. A new rebuild should be 150. Anything 120 and below and you have issues. You have low compression.

 

[Matt Braley]

Sounds like the carbs are flooding. You must not have replaced the needle n seats in them. The engine not turning over is "hydraulic lock" because there is so much fluid(gas) in the engine that it gets between the top of the pistons and the head. Obviously you don't want that igniting so be sure to ground out the 2 plug leads on the posts found on top of the flywheel cover.

 

[NickCawks]

700 Kpa is only 101 psi. A new rebuild should be 150. Anything 120 and below and you have issues. You have low compression.

I'm sure I could pull higher compression if the thing was turning over correctly. It's feels pretty bad to hold the button down with it acting the way it is.

Update: I decided to go test compressions again just to clear this up. After holding the button for quite a while and getting intermittent cranks it got up to 120 psi.

Sounds like the carbs are flooding. You must not have replaced the needle n seats in them.

Needles seats and everything in the carb except springs were replaced with genuine mikuni rebuild kits

If the engine was full of gas wouldn't it spray out the spark plug holes when I try to crank it? I did leave the plugs out all night so hopefully if this is the case it is evaporating

 

[mikidymac]

120 is too low and probably will not start in the water that low. Time for a rebuild if your compression gauge is accurate.

 

[NickCawks]

I just don't think it is an accurate reading of my compression. I am only getting one turn starts (i don't know if that's the right term). but the starter is not spinning the crank enough to get a proper compression reading.

In person, it really feels like an electrical issue. the starter just doesn't seem to be getting the full connection. it tries, gives up, tries, gives up, while the button has not been released during this cycle.

Could this be
-Bad grounding? If so which grounds do I need to check?
-The intermittent buzzer? I feel like this really doesn't matter but it been one of the only issues.
-Has MPEM gone bad?

If this is the engine, how could that have happened? The engine is halfway through its first tank.
-It had never been run over 75% throttle
-The throttle was always varied
-Tune was slightly rich (on the safe side)
-Gas was pre-mixed at a 1/40 ratio (Following Full Bore's break-in procedure to keep my warranty)
-The oil pump is also still functioning

Is the assumption that the bottom end would need a rebuild with these symptoms?

 

[mikidymac]

All the ones I have seen that crank stop crank stop when the button is held down has been a bad battery.

Check all battery cables and connections.

The battery voltage should not drop below 12 volts when cranking.

 

[DooWacka]

1) Don't trust a "look" at fuses, I have learned my lesson and have found open fuses with an ohm meter that look good. For that matter, on cars I have continuity tested fuses as good, only to find they failed under load (but looked fine)!
2) If you are in Colorado, as I am, the compression will be much lower due to altitude (Google it). I never get over about 105 psi on my 951.

 

[R-u-n2it]

If the 95 720 has the same electronics as my 95 785 push the start button 5 times without the lanyard installed, you should get a series of beeps, there can be short and long beeps combined, note what it returns and I'll look it up.

 

[NickCawks]

Hey guys. Bringing an old thread back with slight update/question.

I tried to do as n2it suggested. I was unable to get any results off this. My buzzer has been intermittently working since the beginning so I'm unsure if that is the problem or if this is just not a valid test for the 717.

So here is the update: The ski sat for the last 6 months or so. I have a new job that has been extremely demanding with my time.

This last weekend I finally carved out some time to get this thing cracked open. As there was no definitive answer to the issue and the previous postings on here from Micky indicated a seized crank bearing I just went ahead and yanked the motor and began to tear it down.

Sidenote: When I got to the flywheel removal that sucker was stuck. completely bent my flywheel puller out of shape without budging a millimeter. Even after applying heat and tapping the shaft with a hammer. On that note, I bit the bullet and bought a nice flywheel puller which did the job almost immediately.

New Discovery: It's at this point that I notice something suspicious. The Stator seems to be leaning on a slight angle forward. Now I realize that all 3 screws which hold the stator in place are not tight.

Disclaimer: Take it easy on me here guys. I already feel like a complete dingus. I can very clearly see what happened in my mind. I set the timing then flushed the bolts up with the intention of torque speccing them. I then apparently forgot to do so... Yep, I'm a genius.

Theory: So the ski had been running just fine. it was on the water 2 times and had no issues. On the third visit, the water was crazy choppy and rough. the ski drove fine for a little bit then began to sporadically have issues. We immediately thought this had to be a carb issue and began fooling around with the carbs trying to get the thing running better, which we did. Then someone took the ski out again and it died on them, leading to the issues outlined in the post above.

So while we were trying to fix this issue by screwing with the carb we didn't realize that over the series of rides the screws on the stator had backed out and let the timing get completely out of whack.

Question: Is this a reasonable explanation for the ski not wanting to start? In my mind, it makes complete sense. The stator was not only out of timing it was completely out of position. Could this cause the motor to want to start then give up? It seems reasonable that the stator was only providing a "half pulse" to the electrical system which was allowing it to give it a shot, but unsuccessfully.

Follow up: Now just to be sure I was not missing anything here I went ahead and continued the tear down to check on the crank. When I arrive at the crank I discover it to be in perfect condition. all bearings and seals appear to be in place and intact. When I lay the crank in the bottom half of the crankcase and use the rods to spin it, it spins freely with no apparent "grit" or any type of roughness in the revolutions.

Question 2: when removing the flywheel I only had two of the bolts for my puller. The third I found was about an inch longer. I went ahead and used it anyway and in doing so screwed the bolt too far in and damaged some of the coils slightly with it. I know these things are pretty sensitive so I plan to order a new one.

Is there a concern with using a non-OEM stator?

That's it: So what do you guys think? I am really crossing my fingers that this issue can be solved without a $300 crank rebuild.

I want to thank you guys for your help in the past and thank anyone in advance for any insight you can provide now. Summertime is on the way and this thing needs to get some use in this year!

 

[mikidymac]

I would just get new Gaskets and seals and use crank as is.

Don’t use the junk aftermarket stators.

I would contact Nick or Jess at Westside Powersports Seadoo for s good rested oem one.

 

[NickCawks]

I would just get new Gaskets and seals and use crank as is.

Don’t use the junk aftermarket stators.

I would contact Nick or Jess at Westside Powersports Seadoo for s good rested oem one.

So just to clear it up in my mind, you would say that the stator is a likely cause to the previous symptoms the ski was displaying? I just wanna cover all my bases so I can put this thing back in and at least have a little bit of fun on it before I have to pull it out and take it apart again.

I will definitely get in contact with Nick at Westside, he has never steered me wrong!

Thank you once again for being so helpful and quick to respond Miki!

 

[mikidymac]

Yes a loose stator would cause all kinds of issues.