2006 GTX Wake - 2 Questions - Flushing Engine - Running Full Speed

[ctaltyc]

I have a 2006 GTX Wake Edition.

Running Full Speed
1) Put it on the lake, and was not running full speed. There was no smoke, and no noticeable strange noises. When running 'normal', the speedometer reads 60mph. However, today it only topped out at 40mph. After about 20 minute run time, it started running at 60 mph. I rode for 10 minutes (about), and then took a break. After the break, it returned to running at 40 mph. I then tool it out of the water; to avoid causing any (further) damage.

Flush Engine
2) I hook up garden hose, turn on water, then start the engine. I run for 3 minutes, stop the engine, then turn off garden hose. After close inspection of engine compartment, I notice water has collected in the engine well. I assume the bilge is pumping the water while the engine is running, but accumulates after the engine shuts off. Is this normal, or should I suspect a leak?


**Edit
Just read the manual, and realized I was flushing improperly. correct way: hook up hose; start engine; then start hose. Reverse steps when finished. Still should I see excess water in engine well, or is there a leak?

Also, I suspect the engine not running at full speed is due to the spark plugs. I am just interested if someone has similar experience.

 

[bigJake]

after you realized your flushing error did you pull the plugs and make sure you didn't flood the engine?

 

[ctaltyc]

Which plugs ru referring to? The two plugs in the back? One was closed (usually leave open when not in water, but this was an over sight). Could this caused engine damage?

 

[bigJake]

no, go back and look at the flushing instruction in your manual. there is also a section there on clearing the water out of a flooded engine. e.g if you flip your ski over in the water and don't turn it back over in the proper direction you may flood water into the cylinders, likewise with the hose, if you have a sufficient water pressure on the hose you can flood water into the cylinders if the engine is not running. Take the spark plugs out, PUT THE SPARK PLUG WIRES ON THE GROUNDING STUDS (on my engine they are right in front of the battery). Then just crank the engine and see if any water comes out of the spark plug holes. I'd also look down the hole with a flashlite. If so follow the instruction in the manual for a flooded engine. Even if they do not apear to have water I would spray in some fogging oil just to be safe.

After you make sure you dont have water in the engine then you can look for the water leak. your hull should not be filling with water while running on the hose. not sure if it could just be from having the hose on without the engine running but dont think so.

 

[ctaltyc]

Thanks for the info. Makes sense, and gives me a good a good place to start. I'll post the results tomorrow.

 

[bigJake]

i would check if the engine is flooded tonight, don't think you would want to leave water in there overnight.

 

[ctaltyc]

The manual says to take to dealer. hmm

 

[Michael211_2000]

After close inspection of engine compartment, I notice water has collected in the engine well. I assume the bilge is pumping the water while the engine is running, but accumulates after the engine shuts off. Is this normal, or should I suspect a leak?

It only pumps water from the bilge IF the engine is running IN water (ie. the jet pump itself is what sucks the water from the bilge, and it has to be running in water to do so). The only way to know if you have a leak is to find something leaking. You can check the hoses for leaks while it's running on the trailer hooked to water hose, and if that turns up nothing then next step is to put the boat in the water and look inside carefully with a flashlight for any signs of water intrusion (while it's not running, of course). Finally it could be leaking water around the drive shaft seal, and it may not be evident until the engine is running... you may need a new seal. A bad carbon seal can also cause your pump to cavitate badly at higher speeds as it actually starts to suck air from the bilge into the water flow of the pump, which could account for your strange speed loss... were your rpm's down too, when it wouldn't go past 40 mph? If rpm's were normal but mph wasn't, then it's quite possible the carbon seal on your drive shaft is failing and letting water into the hull at low speeds and air into the pump at higher speeds.

ps. If you haven't already hydrolocked the engine with your backwards flushing technique, then I imagine you're ok... but that's sure a good way to lock up a cylinder! I put an on/off fitting on the end of my waterhose so I can control the flow right there at the back of the PWC rather than having to run to the faucet. Also, keep your run-time's low while running on the trailer, even though the exhaust system is getting cooling water the carbon seal is NOT and it slowly heats up... it's normally cooled by water going thru the jetpump. Keep it under 5 mins, IMO.

pps. Install an automatic electric bilge pump! It'll save your butt if the boat starts taking on water at dockside or at anchor, and even while the engine is running it can make a world of different in getting you back to the docks if you develop a severe leak (such as a failed carbon seal on the driveshaft)... I don't know what the flow rate is of the OEM system, but I'm pretty sure it's nowhere near 600 gph of most electric bilge pumps!

- Michael

 

[Michael211_2000]

after you realized your flushing error did you pull the plugs and make sure you didn't flood the engine?

I'm not clear if he continued running the engine after he realized his mistake or not. If he then reversed his procedure... engine on, water on/water off, engine off.... and ran it again, then it's a moot point now don't you think?

- Michael

 

[bigJake]

yeah, i guess it would be a moot point if he ran the engine afterward.

 

[ctaltyc]

So you are saying... If I was able to get the engine running; using the proper sequence, after the 'mistake'. This means no hydrolocked engine? Engine seems to be running fine now. I will check for leaks tomorrow (daylight). I am very interested in your theory about the shaft seal. I am familar with non-water craft hydraulic water pump w/ failing shaft seals, and I can see how his would effect craft's performance.

 

[ctaltyc]

I want to thank you gentleman for your help. It is very appreciated.

 

[bigJake]

So you are saying... If I was able to get the engine running; using the proper sequence, after the 'mistake'. This means no hydrolocked engine? .

i'm not an expert on the subject but it sounds like you are ok, if you have some I'd spray a little fogging oil in each cylinder just to be on the safe side but I'm a little on the OCD side

 

[Michael211_2000]

So you are saying... If I was able to get the engine running; using the proper sequence, after the 'mistake'. This means no hydrolocked engine?

Yeppers... sounds like you dodged a bullet there friend! :thumbsup:

The carbon seal on these Seadoo driveshafts isn't like the seals you find on hydraulic pumps or waterpumps (my big jetboat with a Berkely jet pump uses a packed seal design with grease-impregnated ropes around the shaft, more like what you're expecting I think).

On these Seadoo's they use a carbon ring seal pushed tightly against a stainless steel disk on the driveshaft. The carbon ring essentially provides the lubrication by wearing off particles of carbon. There's a rubber bellows you can see down there that puts pressure on the carbon ring, keeping it in contact with a stainless steel disk attached to the driveshaft... that's the only thing keeping water out at low speed, and air out at higher speeds. It should be very difficult to pull that bellows back by hand... but if you can, you're opening up a gap that goes directly into the jet pump. If you can pull it back easily then it's mis-adjusted. And if the carbon ring wears out (like from running too much dry on trailer... it heats up when run dry!) then it'll no longer form a liquid barrier against the stainless steel disk on the driveshaft. The carbon ring is held by a clamp inside the end of the bellows. The stainless steel disk is held onto the driveshaft by a hidden clip on the driveshaft (you have to pull the ss disk back towards the pump and bellows just about 1/4 inch to expose the clip that holds it in place), and it has o-rings inside the disk that seal it to the shaft. it's quite the setup! LOL!

- Michael

 

[bigJake]

Yeppers... sounds like you dodged a bullet there friend! :thumbsup:

The carbon seal on these Seadoo driveshafts isn't like the seals you find on hydraulic pumps or waterpumps (my big jetboat with a Berkely jet pump uses a packed seal design with grease-impregnated ropes around the shaft, more like what you're expecting I think).

On these Seadoo's they use a carbon ring seal pushed tightly against a stainless steel disk on the driveshaft. The carbon ring essentially provides the lubrication by wearing off particles of carbon. There's a rubber bellows you can see down there that puts pressure on the carbon ring, keeping it in contact with a stainless steel disk attached to the driveshaft... that's the only thing keeping water out at low speed, and air out at higher speeds. It should be very difficult to pull that bellows back by hand... but if you can, you're opening up a gap that goes directly into the jet pump. If you can pull it back easily then it's mis-adjusted. And if the carbon ring wears out (like from running too much dry on trailer... it heats up when run dry!) then it'll no longer form a liquid barrier against the stainless steel disk on the driveshaft. The carbon ring is held by a clamp inside the end of the bellows. The stainless steel disk is held onto the driveshaft by a hidden clip on the driveshaft (you have to pull the ss disk back towards the pump and bellows just about 1/4 inch to expose the clip that holds it in place), and it has o-rings inside the disk that seal it to the shaft. it's quite the setup! LOL!

- Michael

Michael,
There have been several posts the past few days about people needing to replace the carbon ring so I've been trying to get an understanding of this this as I figure I'm going ot have to deal with it too sooner or later. If I understand your explanation, when I take off the PTO cover (the cover held on by a couple wing nuts) the carbon ring is part of the assembly under that cover. I was looking at this yesterday when I took the cover off to grease the fitting under there. If I'm remembering correctly, starting from the PTO side there is the grease fitting, then a small rubber boot about 1 1/2" inches then some SS which I'm assuming is the drive shaft? Against the SS shaft is a gray ring about an inch thick and about 2" in diameter, from your description I'm guessing this is the carbon ring? then there is a about a 5" rubber boot with a hose clamp on each end.

If I got all of this right so far, I have a couple questions.
- I'm not clear on how the carbon ring is getting lubricated when the ski is in the water?
- what exactly is the grease fitting lubricating?
- what is inside the long rubber boot?
- when i took the pto cover off yesterday there were 2 rings of grease around it, i think one ring was where the small rubber boot is and the 2nd ring was at the pump end of the long rubber boot. Is this indicating a problem?
- when you say the rubber bellows keeps pressure on the carbon ring, are you referring to the long rubber boot with the hose clamps? I was able to turn this boot, the clamp on the pump side was pretty loose so I just tightened it a bit.
- you say you should not be able to pull back the bellows - again, you mean the long rubber boot, right? do you mean pull back toward the pump or pull toward the PTO. I have to check again but I think I was able pull that back toward the pump, I just remember being able to create a gap between the carbon ring and the SS plate.
- do grease fittings clogs up? when I gave the grease fitting a couple shots of grease it all came out around the grease fitting (i mean like it didnt go in the grease fitting, not leak out around the base), it's possible I didnt have the grease gun seated on the fitting but I thought I did,
the small rubber boot next to the fitting seemed to be bulging too like maybe it's already packed full of grease, I thought you wre supposed to give it a couple shots after each ride or two which I rarely do.

Thanks for any clarification you can provide.

 

[Michael211_2000]

... then some SS which I'm assuming is the drive shaft? Against the SS shaft is a gray ring about an inch thick and about 2" in diameter, from your description I'm guessing this is the carbon ring? then there is a about a 5" rubber boot with a hose clamp on each end.

The carbon ring is in 1 end of that 5" rubber boot. It is held in there by the clamp on the end. The clamp on the other end anchors the boot in place, and is where you can adjust the boot a little to get the right amount of pressure on the carbon ring to hold it tight against the stainless steel disk on the driveshaft. I don't know what you were greasing, my 2006 RXT doesn't have a grease fitting down there. We have different models and I only know my RXT model in any detail (I had the engine and jetpump both out of the hull last Fall, fixing a bent connecting rod... the previous owner had partially sunk it and ingested water hydrolocking the engine, and thus I got it very very cheap!).

If I got all of this right so far, I have a couple questions.
- I'm not clear on how the carbon ring is getting lubricated when the ski is in the water?
- what exactly is the grease fitting lubricating?
- what is inside the long rubber boot?
- when i took the pto cover off yesterday there were 2 rings of grease around it, i think one ring was where the small rubber boot is and the 2nd ring was at the pump end of the long rubber boot. Is this indicating a problem?
- when you say the rubber bellows keeps pressure on the carbon ring, are you referring to the long rubber boot with the hose clamps? I was able to turn this boot, the clamp on the pump side was pretty loose so I just tightened it a bit.
- you say you should not be able to pull back the bellows - again, you mean the long rubber boot, right? do you mean pull back toward the pump or pull toward the PTO. I have to check again but I think I was able pull that back toward the pump, I just remember being able to create a gap between the carbon ring and the SS plate.
- do grease fittings clogs up? when I gave the grease fitting a couple shots of grease it all came out around the grease fitting (i mean like it didnt go in the grease fitting, not leak out around the base), it's possible I didnt have the grease gun seated on the fitting but I thought I did,
the small rubber boot next to the fitting seemed to be bulging too like maybe it's already packed full of grease, I thought you wre supposed to give it a couple shots after each ride or two which I rarely do.

- The carbon in the carbon ring provides most of the lubricant. Water helps.
- I don't know what that grease fitting does, mine doesn't have one
- The only thing inside the long rubber boot (called a bellows) is the carbon ring itself... it's secured by the clamp on the outside closest to the engine; the clamp closest to the jet pump anchors the bellows to the hull
- I have no idea about the 2 rings of grease, again my model doesn't have a grease fitting down there anywhere.... my PTO is lubricated by engine oil, the drive shaft comes out of it and into the bellows and jet pump impeller. I cannot imagine what needs to be greased down there!
- The long rubber boot, or bellows, is like part spring and part water seal... it holds the carbon ring against the ss disk on the driveshaft forming that seal, and it is clamped to the hull on the other end to keep water from coming into the hull; if you can turn it, then the clamp anchoring it is WAY too loose!
- The long rubber boot is also referred to as a bellows, and it should be pretty hard to pull it back towards the jetpump... Seadoo even sells a tool just to help you pull it back to remove the clip that holds the ss disk onto the drive shaft. It can be pulled back enough by hand, but it took me a mighty effort to do so! If you can pull it back fairly easily then it's not adjusted correctly... loosen the clamp anchoring it to the hull, and pull the back end of the bellows forward to increase pressure on the end with the carbon ring then re-tighten that clamp!
- Yes, grease fittings can clog up (won't take grease) or go bad (grease comes right back out the end once the grease gun is removed). It's pretty commen in fact. Your local auto parts can sell you a package of them for a few bucks.

- Michael

 

[bigJake]

thanks very much, very helpful