2003 GTI LE RFI won't start in water

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beckn

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I have a 2003 GTI LE RFI that is hard to start in the water. Just had a complete rebuild of the engine(787), new starter, new battery, etc...
Starts fine out of water but once in the water after a 5 or 10 minute run when i go to restart it fires but won't start. We then find that if i lift it out of the water from the rear, start it then put it back in its ok till we stop it again.

I have checked, fuel, plugs, leads, spark etc... and can not find a reason for this.

can anyone help.

Thanks
 
I know this sounds crazy, on a fresh rebuild, but check the compression. Could be the rings have not seated or not seated properly.

Lou
 
Thanks LouDoo, I have tested this today and both cylinders are at 154 + 155 psi. any other suggestions.

bernie
 
When you try to start it... have you tried to open the throttle a little? If your injectors are leaking (from age) the engine will flood slightly, and make a re-start hard.
 
I have tried this and on some occassions this has worked but it has gotten progressively harder to get it to start in this way.
 
If it starts in the water... when cold... and has no other running issues... then I would be suspect of the fuel injectors.
 
All you can do is take them to a local injector shop. It's not easy checking the leak-down at home. BUT... if you can rig something... just put 40 PSI on them, and see if it holds.
 
Got the injectors out and have sent away for testing, found the no 1 injector was not clipped in properly possibly the cause of my fuel smell in the negine bay and might have contributed towards the hard starting in water????

Thanks for the tips, i will post again once i have the injectors back and let you know how i have gone.

many thanks bernie
 
Got the injectors out and have sent away for testing, found the no 1 injector was not clipped in properly possibly the cause of my fuel smell in the negine bay and might have contributed towards the hard starting in water????

Thanks for the tips, i will post again once i have the injectors back and let you know how i have gone.

many thanks bernie
 
I have re-installed the injectors after being sent away for cleaning new seals and testing etc....
starts out of water ok. When we first put it into the water it started fine. After a 20 min run was firing on starting, (nearly starting), but still did not start until we lifted the back out of the water.
Whilst running it definately went better after the injector clean and more responsive.

Could it be something to do with the exhaust and back pressue caused by being in the water?
Is there an automatic choke or something on the RFI engines that is not working correctly?
It is currently idling at about 2500-2600 rpm out of the water and 1600-1700 rpm in the water, should this be higher?


As mentioned earlier this motor is freshly rebuilt by a marine mechanic, new solas impeller(std pitch) & wear ring, new plugs(good spark) and the injectors have just been tested, cleaned & serviced also when first in the mechanics they done a system check and reported no errors.

Any more idea's are greatly appreciated.
 
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Could it be something to do with the exhaust and back pressue caused by being in the water?
Is there an automatic choke or something on the RFI engines that is not working correctly?
It is currently idling at about 2500-2600 rpm out of the water and 1600-1700 rpm in the water, should this be higher?

I have re-installed the injectors after being sent away for cleaning new seals and testing etc....
starts out of water ok. When we first put it into the water it started fine. After a 20 min run was firing on starting, (nearly starting), but still did not start until we lifted the back out of the water.
Whilst running it definately went better after the injector clean and more responsive.

Could it be something to do with the exhaust and back pressue caused by being in the water?
Is there an automatic choke or something on the RFI engines that is not working correctly?
It is currently idling at about 2500-2600 rpm out of the water and 1600-1700 rpm in the water, should this be higher?


As mentioned earlier this motor is freshly rebuilt by a marine mechanic, new solas impeller(std pitch) & wear ring, new plugs(good spark) and the injectors have just been tested, cleaned & serviced also when first in the mechanics they done a system check and reported no errors.

Any more idea's are greatly appreciated.
 
Sorry I missed it earlier.


Yes it could... but it's unlikely. I would pull the big crossover tube on the exhaust, and make sure it hasn't de-laminated.

Also... I know you said it was freshly rebuilt... but check the compression. What you are describing is caused by low compression.


As far as a "auto choke" ... yes the EFI engine has it... but it's just the computer putting more fuel in the engine when it's cold. Now... on that thought... if your temp sender is bad... it may be thinking that the engine is still cold, and it would spray more fuel, and flood a warm engine.


Finally... have you put in fresh spark plugs? I know that may sound basic, but if they are fouled, or if the "Resistor" internally has been roasted... it will cause all kinds of running issues.
 
Hi Dr Honda, thankyou. I have checked compression and is 154 on #1 and 155 on #2.

Maybe temp sender needs checking.
I will also try new spark plugs again on the next run. I am running 20 thou gap on the plugs should I change this whilst I am at it.

How do i check the temp sender for problems.

Thanks again for your response.

bernie

Sorry I missed it earlier.


Yes it could... but it's unlikely. I would pull the big crossover tube on the exhaust, and make sure it hasn't de-laminated.

Also... I know you said it was freshly rebuilt... but check the compression. What you are describing is caused by low compression.


As far as a "auto choke" ... yes the EFI engine has it... but it's just the computer putting more fuel in the engine when it's cold. Now... on that thought... if your temp sender is bad... it may be thinking that the engine is still cold, and it would spray more fuel, and flood a warm engine.


Finally... have you put in fresh spark plugs? I know that may sound basic, but if they are fouled, or if the "Resistor" internally has been roasted... it will cause all kinds of running issues.
 
Have you verified rotary valve clearance. If the cover is worn past the spec it will cause it to be hard to start in the water.
 
I had discussed this with the mechanic after rebuild, as a couple of months prior to the rebuild the ratary valve and shaft was replaced. He had assured me after the rebuild this was ok. I will however, call him and see if we can get this checked out again, just to rule it out. Also the rebuild did require it to be replaced again as when the motor let go of the bottom end it damaged the one that was originally replaced.

If the cover is in fact worn past spec, would this happen in the first 10 hours of the rebuild and if so, what would cause this to happen.

Thanks for the suggestion, i look forward to any help i can get towards fixing this issue.

Have you verified rotary valve clearance. If the cover is worn past the spec it will cause it to be hard to start in the water.
 
Yep... high clearance in the RV would cause hard starts too. Personally... I would just check it myself, and not rely on a mechanic right now. I'm not saying he's dishonest... but in the early summer, it may take a while for him to get to it. Also... when you are looking at that... you can verify the timing.

Yes... the 0.020" gap on the plugs is fine. I don't expect it to be a night and day difference with the new plugs... but it can't hurt either. I know I just got my ski's out of winter hibernation... and my XP wouldn't start with the plugs that were in it. (They didn't look bad to me)

The compression is perfect.

On the EFI engine... the book doesn't give a great test... but at "Room temp" (65 to 70 Deg F) the resistance at the plug of the MPEM (pin 5 and 12) should be 2.280 to 2.736 Ohms.

On that note... do you have the factory manual for your ski? Realistically... all the sensors should be checked. If you have a dealer close... they can plug into it, and get all the readings in one shot... and look at them "Live" to see what they are doing when it starts. (or is trying to start)
 
Sorry for the delay in my reply / outcome of my issue.

Anyway, as it turned out the rotary valve clearance was the issue initially. Had fixed this along with a new cover plate for the rotary valve. Got the jet ski back ran up the river for about 1 1/2 hours then it died again.

this time it would not start at all. Sent it back to the mechanic (as the engine is still under warranty with the mechanic (only done about 10 hours)) only to find the bottom rings on the pistons had broken. Upon his inspection he has found the oil in the case of the engine to be gummy / tacky. He has now suggested to change oil (again) was advised to use either seadoo oil or Torco PWC Injection oil. I used the torco oil. Anyway now he is rebuilding the motor and hopedfully it comes back with no more issues.

Has any one had this sort of issue with Torco PWC oil.

Thanks
Bernie
 
I don't think anyone here has talked about the Torco oils. What flavor is it? Is it a certified API-TC oil?

For the most part... when we talk about oils... it's either XPS, QuickSilver PWC, or RedLine Dominator. AND... every once in a while, we see the Citgo Snow mobile, or 2T.
 
Hi Tony

yes the oil as far as we know here is an american based co. i have put the link to the site below.
http://www.torcousa.com/v-jetski.html
This is what the mechanics recomended as the ost effective best alternative to the SEADOO XPS oil.




I don't think anyone here has talked about the Torco oils. What flavor is it? Is it a certified API-TC oil?

For the most part... when we talk about oils... it's either XPS, QuickSilver PWC, or RedLine Dominator. AND... every once in a while, we see the Citgo Snow mobile, or 2T.
 
Hi Tony

yes the oil as far as we know here is an american based co. i have put the link to the site below.
http://www.torcousa.com/v-jetski.html
This is what the mechanics recomended as the ost effective best alternative to the SEADOO XPS oil.




I don't think anyone here has talked about the Torco oils. What flavor is it? Is it a certified API-TC oil?

For the most part... when we talk about oils... it's either XPS, QuickSilver PWC, or RedLine Dominator. AND... every once in a while, we see the Citgo Snow mobile, or 2T.
 
Man that sucks. I would clean your oil tank out real good and change all the lines when the engine goes back together.
 
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