• This site contains eBay affiliate links for which Sea-Doo Forum may be compensated.

1999 GSX limited 951 Engine, new Stator and trigger, no spark

Status
Not open for further replies.
by the way, the trigger test confirmed that it is dead, no voltage at all

If it's in backward then it won't generate a voltage even though it ohms out right, thus you'll have no trigger pulse to inform the MPEM to lite the plugs off.

If/when you go back in there to reorient things, don't forget you need to use loc tite blue thread locker on those screws to keep them from rattling lose down the road.
 
Oh that's right, on the pipe gasket, you're better off not to reuse, I think, it's a tenuous assembly as it is and famous for leaking there! BTW, water gets sucked into the carbs if it does leak and causes all kinds of problem, you probably already know.
 
Ok guys, got it all back together and got it running. the only issue is that it doesn't feel like im getting max RPM, I'm getting about 5600. I just know it doesn't have the top end speed/power it once did... I'm going to tinker some more, but do you guys have any idea? I remember it did this once when I had a leak at the exhaust pipe joint clamp. On this build I also had a exhast leak at that joint. I loosened it and bump it around a little with a rubber mallet. tightened it up and the smoke and water went away... I don't know if that is the issue or not. I rode it without the seat so I could look at the joint and I don't see any smoke or water coming out of it. I have a new copper gasket there with high temp gasket sealer.
 
Oh, and can we safely assume your throttle plates are opening 90 degrees (fully open)?

I'm cleaning my RAVEs now. I don't think it had ever been done on this bike. I will also check the throttle plates to ensure it is opening all the way. I was also wondering how to check the TPS that advances the timing at 80% throttle.. is there any chance that system isn't working properly?
 
I'm cleaning my RAVEs now. I don't think it had ever been done on this bike. I will also check the throttle plates to ensure it is opening all the way. I was also wondering how to check the TPS that advances the timing at 80% throttle.. is there any chance that system isn't working properly?

The TPS ignition timing advance was used on the later models I think, so yours may not have this. If yours has this TPS then at the rectangular box where the throttle and oil pump control cable splits from single to dual cable there is an electric sensor mounted to the side of the box with a 3-wire cable. White/black, black, purple are the three colors, white/black is 5v on/off signal, black is ground, and purple is 12v.

If you back-probe the MPEM connector #2 pin 17 using a straight pin or very thin stiff wire like a straightened paper clip, you can check for the 5v on/off signal that tells the MPEM to advance the timing as the throttle reaches about 80% full open.

If your RAVES are sticking or cannot operate/open, it will cause the symptom you described. Also, if I remember correctly, my 951 boat would only rev to about 6200 RPM when the TPS switch was broken.
 
The TPS ignition timing advance was used on the later models I think, so yours may not have this. If yours has this TPS then at the rectangular box where the throttle and oil pump control cable splits from single to dual cable there is an electric sensor mounted to the side of the box with a 3-wire cable. White/black, black, purple are the three colors, white/black is 5v on/off signal, black is ground, and purple is 12v.

If you back-probe the MPEM connector #2 pin 17 using a straight pin or very thin stiff wire like a straightened paper clip, you can check for the 5v on/off signal that tells the MPEM to advance the timing as the throttle reaches about 80% full open.

If your RAVES are sticking or cannot operate/open, it will cause the symptom you described. Also, if I remember correctly, my 951 boat would only rev to about 6200 RPM when the TPS switch was broken.

I will check the TPS as you describe. no change with clean RAVES at the exhaust manifold. I didn't look at the one down in the back near the end of the exhaust. I'll probably look at that one as well. At half throttle it sounds like it is missing.. I cut back my plug wires, but no change. it sounds better wide open, but definately doesn't have the power it once had and I can only get 5600 rpm out of it. It moves fast enough that I can't hear if it is missing wide open. I have a crappy compression tester, but it reads 120 on both cylinders. I will also try to check the solenoid that feeds the RAVEs
 
Another approach for testing the RAVES you might consider is by disabling them to see the result. Removing the single tube air supply from the solenoid and capping it off (fold it over and pinch it using a tie-wrap or piece of wire) will disable the RAVES thus you should see a decrease in performance. If you see no decrease, this indicates a problem with the RAVES may exist. If a notable decrease occurs, this would indicate your RAVES are working.

On the waterbox valve, you can disconnect the tubing and unscrew it from the waterbox for a peak inside. Mine isnt' tightly threaded into the waterbox, it's fairly easy to rotate it by hand. Under the black cap is a rubber bellows held by a metallic clamp that sometimes rusts through and can puncture a hole in the bellows, the fix is to replace the bellows if it has a hole in it and replace the metallic clamp with a small tie-wrap.

Basically, increased exhaust pressure in the waterbox created during high throttle operation pushes up the valve bellows and moves the valve stem upwards to reduce water flow from the valve outlet port through the tube that injects water into the exhaust expansion pipe. At WOT, a great majority of the water entering the watervalve is dumped into the water box and the expansion pipe water injection volume is reduced to allow the expansion pipe to "dry out".

As far as the ignition miss is concerned, does the throttle response feel "flat" at half throttle, as if the fuel mixture is too lean? Mine was this way until I rejetted the carbs, but you may just have some gum in the internal carburetor filters and especially carb bore "bypass" ports. It's fairly common to experience fuel delivery issues on these skis if those carbs haven't been cleaned out well recently, and/or air leaks in the fuel lines are very common as well, especially around the water/fuel separator cup o-ring gasket and sometimes the fuel reserve switch valve. If your ski still has the gray Tempo fuel lines on it, the carbs are likely plugged with goo and gum from the fuel lines as they decay and corrode internally.

120psi sounds reasonable, especially if both cylinders are the same. It's possible your gauge may have some offset in the calibration. I've measured 120 on mine after it's sat for over a week and was stone cold (Always test with full open throttle during cranking), and 135 once just after it had been previously started. I guess the reading will vary somewhat depending on how much oil film is on the cylinder walls, improving ring sealing. What you don't want to see is a 20% difference between cylinders, this indicates some damage has occurred and the motor needs to be torn down.

Engine damage on these 2-strokers is often caused by fueling problems, if a carb is plugged or too lean and not fueling one cylinder there is a risk the piston will be damaged from the lean air/fuel mixture. Also, a cylinder that's not receiving fuel is also not receiving lubricant, b/c the fuel carries the lubricant throughout and onto the wetted surfaces. Most often in mild cases the damage doesn't occur at mid throttle positions but at WOT, when the engine is producing maximum heat. Sometimes a lean spot in mid-throttle can cause a partial lean-seize as the engine is coming out of a WOT pull, the mixture leans out while the pistons are still at max temp.

Make sure you've got the correct spark plugs and they're gaped to 0.020~0.022, otherwise an ignition miss can be the result. I've noticed these motors just don't run properly if the incorrect (brand/type) plugs are installed.
 
Another phenomenon that's sometimes reported to cause limited RPM and ignition misses on the seadoos results from a faulty voltage rectifier/regulator. You can temporarily disconnect/disable the rectifier/regulator and see if the performance issue improves. If your ski is like mine, the r/r is built internal to the MPEM, so in this case, the best way to disable the r/r is by pulling the 15amp BATT fuse out of the MPEM.

Mostly this r/r phenomenon seems to be reported on non-951 models, but since the control system is similar, it's worth a shot. If your r/r is defective, an external one can be wired without having to replace the entire MPEM.

Also, you can measure the battery voltage while the ski is running, mine was 13.8volts when I measured it shortly after startup, thus I expects the voltage should ideally settle out to 13.8volts and should not exceed 14.2volts Less than 13.8 would indicated the battery is not being charged and more than 14.2 would indicate the regulator is not functioning properly.
 
She runs the same without the single tube connected. I also get 5 volts from the TPS normally and zero at full throttle. How do I test the solenoid?
 
She runs the same without the single tube connected. I also get 5 volts from the TPS normally and zero at full throttle. How do I test the solenoid?

If you remove the MPEM AMP connector #3 from the MPEM, you can measure the continuity of the RAVE solenoid coil from pins 23 and 8, it should measure ~30 ohms of resistance.

I think you said you have a parts ski, maybe you could swap out the solenoid from there? You can rig a temporary harness and connect 12v to the RAVE solenoid valve, it should click open and pass air pressure through from the crankcase tube port to the RAVE tube port. The 3rd port on that valve vents pressure from the RAVES tube side to atmosphere, allowing RAVES to close (pressure to the RAVES opens them) when the solenoid is denergized off (12volts removed). Blowing back into the tube from the raves with no 12volts power to RAVE air solenoid, air should exit the RAVE air solenoid atmospheric vent port. So to be clear, there are three ports on that RAVE air solenoid valve, one for pressure in from the crankcase check valve, one for pressure out to the RAVES, and one for RAVE pressure release vent. The solenoid passes pressure to the RAVES when it's energized by the MPEM 12volt signal. Make sure the tubing is connected to the correct location(s). Also make sure the one-way check valve from the crankcase isn't installed backwards(the pressure source is the crankcase) and the check valve isn't plugged with muck/gum, and the short tubing from the crankcase to the check valve isn't rotted or pinched.
 
If you remove the MPEM AMP connector #3 from the MPEM, you can measure the continuity of the RAVE solenoid coil from pins 23 and 8, it should measure ~30 ohms of resistance.

I think you said you have a parts ski, maybe you could swap out the solenoid from there? You can rig a temporary harness and connect 12v to the RAVE solenoid valve, it should click open and pass air pressure through from the crankcase tube port to the RAVE tube port. The 3rd port on that valve vents pressure from the RAVES tube side to atmosphere, allowing RAVES to close (pressure to the RAVES opens them) when the solenoid is denergized off (12volts removed). Blowing back into the tube from the raves with no 12volts power to RAVE air solenoid, air should exit the RAVE air solenoid atmospheric vent port. So to be clear, there are three ports on that RAVE air solenoid valve, one for pressure in from the crankcase check valve, one for pressure out to the RAVES, and one for RAVE pressure release vent. The solenoid passes pressure to the RAVES when it's energized by the MPEM 12volt signal. Make sure the tubing is connected to the correct location(s). Also make sure the one-way check valve from the crankcase isn't installed backwards(the pressure source is the crankcase) and the check valve isn't plugged with muck/gum, and the short tubing from the crankcase to the check valve isn't rotted or pinched.
Thank you for your very informative explanation on the various systems. I'm still a little fuzzy on the purpose of the solendoid. I understand that the pressure comes from the crankcase, and I kinda understand that as the pressure enters the RAVEs the gate slides open, affecting performance (not sure why though). Does the MPEM tell the solenoid to open at certain times? if so, what is that signal based on?
 
Another approach for testing the RAVES you might consider is by disabling them to see the result. Removing the single tube air supply from the solenoid and capping it off (fold it over and pinch it using a tie-wrap or piece of wire) will disable the RAVES thus you should see a decrease in performance. If you see no decrease, this indicates a problem with the RAVES may exist. If a notable decrease occurs, this would indicate your RAVES are working.

On the waterbox valve, you can disconnect the tubing and unscrew it from the waterbox for a peak inside. Mine isnt' tightly threaded into the waterbox, it's fairly easy to rotate it by hand. Under the black cap is a rubber bellows held by a metallic clamp that sometimes rusts through and can puncture a hole in the bellows, the fix is to replace the bellows if it has a hole in it and replace the metallic clamp with a small tie-wrap.

Basically, increased exhaust pressure in the waterbox created during high throttle operation pushes up the valve bellows and moves the valve stem upwards to reduce water flow from the valve outlet port through the tube that injects water into the exhaust expansion pipe. At WOT, a great majority of the water entering the watervalve is dumped into the water box and the expansion pipe water injection volume is reduced to allow the expansion pipe to "dry out".

As far as the ignition miss is concerned, does the throttle response feel "flat" at half throttle, as if the fuel mixture is too lean? Mine was this way until I rejetted the carbs, but you may just have some gum in the internal carburetor filters and especially carb bore "bypass" ports. It's fairly common to experience fuel delivery issues on these skis if those carbs haven't been cleaned out well recently, and/or air leaks in the fuel lines are very common as well, especially around the water/fuel separator cup o-ring gasket and sometimes the fuel reserve switch valve. If your ski still has the gray Tempo fuel lines on it, the carbs are likely plugged with goo and gum from the fuel lines as they decay and corrode internally.

120psi sounds reasonable, especially if both cylinders are the same. It's possible your gauge may have some offset in the calibration. I've measured 120 on mine after it's sat for over a week and was stone cold (Always test with full open throttle during cranking), and 135 once just after it had been previously started. I guess the reading will vary somewhat depending on how much oil film is on the cylinder walls, improving ring sealing. What you don't want to see is a 20% difference between cylinders, this indicates some damage has occurred and the motor needs to be torn down.

Engine damage on these 2-strokers is often caused by fueling problems, if a carb is plugged or too lean and not fueling one cylinder there is a risk the piston will be damaged from the lean air/fuel mixture. Also, a cylinder that's not receiving fuel is also not receiving lubricant, b/c the fuel carries the lubricant throughout and onto the wetted surfaces. Most often in mild cases the damage doesn't occur at mid throttle positions but at WOT, when the engine is producing maximum heat. Sometimes a lean spot in mid-throttle can cause a partial lean-seize as the engine is coming out of a WOT pull, the mixture leans out while the pistons are still at max temp.

Make sure you've got the correct spark plugs and they're gaped to 0.020~0.022, otherwise an ignition miss can be the result. I've noticed these motors just don't run properly if the incorrect (brand/type) plugs are installed.

The water box valve did have a little water and gunk inside the bellows. I didn't notice a tear in the bellows, but I may just swap it out with the donor bike. Is the water box valve related to the RAVE valve solenoid?
 
The water box valve did have a little water and gunk inside the bellows. I didn't notice a tear in the bellows, but I may just swap it out with the donor bike. Is the water box valve related to the RAVE valve solenoid?

The water box valve is a completely separate system from the RAVE valves, despite they are both installed in and control aspects of the exhaust system (emphasis on system), the water box valve simply controls the volume of water injected to the expansion pipe (sometimes called the cone pipe) to adjust the sonic length of the expansion pipe for a sort of "turbocharging" effect.

Concerning the RAVES, it's purely a coincidence the valves look similar, they're made by the same vendor I guess and probably they designed the entire tuned exhaust system.

In the case of the RAVES, these control the size(cross section) and timing of the exhaust ports in the cylinders. During low speed operation, it helps to have a conservative(retarded port timing) exhaust port configuration in order to obtain acceptably smooth operation and throttle response. During low speed operation, the RAVE valves are closed in order to reduce the exhaust port cross sectional area and retard the porting of the exhaust stroke. This helps to take some of the edginess out of the tune in order to improve low speed performance. If the RAVES were always up in their opened position (advanced port timing), the engine wouldn't idle well, and would be difficult to start.

But open up the throttle a good ways approaching greater than 50%, and restricted exhaust ports(RAVES closed) will restrict the way the engine breaths, so the RAVE valves should begin opening to allow the engine to breath and make use of the tuned exhaust expansion pipe.

So if your RAVES aren't fully opening (lifting completely up, advancing the exhaust port timing) for whatever reason, then the engine cannot develop it's full potential power b/c the exhaust port timing is too retarded. Conversely, if the RAVES are sticking open then low speed operation will be mushy and difficult to control, resulting in poor throttle response, and possibly hard to start the engine.

Story short, the MPEM energizes the solenoid based on MPEM pre-mapped programming (basically engine RPM, I think), which allows air pressure from the crankcase through the solenoid to pressurize the RAVE bellows and actuate the blade upward, advancing the exhaust port timing.

So if there's something wrong with the air solenoid for whatever reason (perhaps the electrical connector is disconnected), then the RAVE valves won't receive air pressure from the crankcase and they won't open. This will limit engine performance. If I recall, my 951 engine wouldn't rev to 6000RPM when I first splashed my newly bought used boat until after I removed the RAVES and cleaned the carbon and oil film that was causing them to stick in the closed position. I seem to recall it would only rev to about 5600 RPM.

Otherwise, there may be some other phenomenon causing your particular performance issue, confirming/maintaining RAVES operation is typically the low-hanging fruit.

Thus, if you're confident the RAVE's system is functioning properly, we can brainstorm further on other possibilities.
 
Also check the pulse line that runs from the lower rear corner (carb side) of the crankcase to the RAVE solenoid. It could be cracked or leaking somewhere. There is also a small check valve in the line as well. That line runs up near the pipe you removed. Its possible you snagged it unknowingly.

Sorry if this has been brought up previously...I didn't take time to read all sportsters "books" he wrote. :cheers: Just poking at ya man!
 
The water box valve is a completely separate system from the RAVE valves, despite they are both installed in and control aspects of the exhaust system (emphasis on system), the water box valve simply controls the volume of water injected to the expansion pipe (sometimes called the cone pipe) to adjust the sonic length of the expansion pipe for a sort of "turbocharging" effect.

Concerning the RAVES, it's purely a coincidence the valves look similar, they're made by the same vendor I guess and probably they designed the entire tuned exhaust system.

In the case of the RAVES, these control the size(cross section) and timing of the exhaust ports in the cylinders. During low speed operation, it helps to have a conservative(retarded port timing) exhaust port configuration in order to obtain acceptably smooth operation and throttle response. During low speed operation, the RAVE valves are closed in order to reduce the exhaust port cross sectional area and retard the porting of the exhaust stroke. This helps to take some of the edginess out of the tune in order to improve low speed performance. If the RAVES were always up in their opened position (advanced port timing), the engine wouldn't idle well, and would be difficult to start.

But open up the throttle a good ways approaching greater than 50%, and restricted exhaust ports(RAVES closed) will restrict the way the engine breaths, so the RAVE valves should begin opening to allow the engine to breath and make use of the tuned exhaust expansion pipe.

So if your RAVES aren't fully opening (lifting completely up, advancing the exhaust port timing) for whatever reason, then the engine cannot develop it's full potential power b/c the exhaust port timing is too retarded. Conversely, if the RAVES are sticking open then low speed operation will be mushy and difficult to control, resulting in poor throttle response, and possibly hard to start the engine.

Story short, the MPEM energizes the solenoid based on MPEM pre-mapped programming (basically engine RPM, I think), which allows air pressure from the crankcase through the solenoid to pressurize the RAVE bellows and actuate the blade upward, advancing the exhaust port timing.

So if there's something wrong with the air solenoid for whatever reason (perhaps the electrical connector is disconnected), then the RAVE valves won't receive air pressure from the crankcase and they won't open. This will limit engine performance. If I recall, my 951 engine wouldn't rev to 6000RPM when I first splashed my newly bought used boat until after I removed the RAVES and cleaned the carbon and oil film that was causing them to stick in the closed position. I seem to recall it would only rev to about 5600 RPM.

Otherwise, there may be some other phenomenon causing your particular performance issue, confirming/maintaining RAVES operation is typically the low-hanging fruit.

Thus, if you're confident the RAVE's system is functioning properly, we can brainstorm further on other possibilities.

OK thanks- I'm confident that there is something wrong with the RAVE system since it ran the same without the tubing connected. I will investigate. thanks again
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top