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Weird issue

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Consider taking some lapping compound to the needle seat or swapping the seat, there may be a bur on the seat causing the needle not to seal?

I use autosol polish on a Q tip in a drill to pollish the seats and man what a job that does :D

Pretty much a mirror finish in there when I'm done and not much pressure needed at all.

That's what I have done on the Mag side seat now.

I played around with some other springs that came with a mikuni kit. One was dull silver and the pop off happened around 45 psi. Which Is wierd since that's almost exactly what I would have expected to get with a 1.5 needle and that spring.
So I should get around 38 with a black spring. I wonder if my black springs are in fact proper black springs or maybe for some other type of carb.
 
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Take a mirror and good flashlight, then look down each carbs throat at idle with airbox all the way off. See if fuel is dribbling into throat at idle, which means needle and seat are leaking.

Rob

This is a good suggestion. I had a carb once that I had a tough time dialing in a stable idle mixture and realized while looking down into the bore there was fuel dripping from the main venturi. WTF (Where's The Fun?), the fuel bowl was flooding the main venturi b/c the float needle seat was hosed.
 
I use autosol polish on a Q tip in a drill to pollish the seats and man what a job that does :D

* Cool, I almost did that to mine but I'm kinda lazy really and didn't think it would make it run any smoother. Plus I was in a hurry... :) It's on my list next time the carbs come off though, I'm curious to know if I can notice a difference.

I wonder if my black springs are in fact proper black springs or maybe for some other type of carb.

* Hard to know, I've been known to accidentally get spring mixed up myself and it sucks when that happens (Enie-meanie-miney-moe... Ugh...).
 
Depends on how big of a hole but a large enough pinhole would allow air into the fuel chamber and maybe make the dynamic pop a little goofy (like unstable idle mixture?) and most likely show up as a fuel-wet diaphragm cover around the cover air vent hole.

Hold the diaphragm up to a bright light if you have it out and inspect for holes if it's an old one it could be a possibility?
 
They were new kits just last year and this problem was there then but wasn't that bad. Mainly it was rough idling and only rough up to 3000. After that it worked great and i didn't care that much since my cruising RPM started at 3200 anyways.

I'll have a look with a light.
 
Yep, just throwing ideas out there. Doesn't cost anything to look and it's unlikely but hey.. I wonder if the next smaller pilot jet might clean up your low end a little without causing a lean hesitation. If you pick up RPM on the top end with the smaller pilot then I'd open the HS a little to drop it back to where it was till the plugs begin to reflect the new color.

I really like to see the cardboard color as opposed to something lighter.

Too bad we don't have a midrange mixture needle, but I think many people try to get them too lean b/c they seem to run better (much crisper throttle response) and they take it too far.

Must have a hint of 4-stroking IMO, but it shouldn't be enough to interfere with drivability at any speed. Unloaded 4-stroking at WOT is the yardstick we used when there weren't rev limiters, unloaded WOT 4-strroking was our rev limiter.

Get these motors too lean and they will roast a piston for sure, maybe not right away but eventually in a couple hours.

And that high compression gets you closer to detonation, so the top needs to be fat enough to avoid that. cardboard plugs tells you that, IMO.

A 2-stroke really does scream best just before it lean seizes, so it you can hit REV limit and have the correctly matched impeller I suspect it's too lean, shouldn't be bumping against rev limit unless the boat gets airborn.

Mine 4-strokes a hair until I get to about 3kRPM as well, then cleans out from there. I notice a difference in the amount of 4-stroking if the motor is cold too, there's more of it when cold and only slight when warmed up after a good run. I wanna hear some 4-stroking though, and wish we didn't have a rev limiter so I could get the HS set the way I'm used to. But since we have rev limit I figure without the air box if I see more WOT RPM then I'm pretty close if I lose a barely noticeable amount (say ~50RPM) with the airbox installed.
 
I just pulled the head, Nothing obvious except that around the pto cylinder it looks like the flange sealant was setting up between the head and cylinder as if the head wasn't seating flat on the cylinder.

Also the orings were covered in sealant.

Removed them and cleaned all the residue off. Now I just have sealant under the new orings and its not oozing out. We'll see what that does.


Also I've noticed two problems with my carbs.

1 Its impossible to set pop off according to the Mikuni chart because the carb body is worn. I had to make a 2mm shim to put under the spring. Now If I use any spring and the 1.5mm seat I get within 2 psi of the Mikuni chart. Both carbs behaved the same way so both got shim's. (set to 38 psi with black spring and no bending of the arm)

2. Apparently these carbs will have problems as they age because when the butterfly is wide open it moves up and down enough to mash the top and bottom of it.
When the butterfly is closed, you can see a gap on top and bottom that would lean out the low speed mixture and that would require more fuel to tune it and then it would be too rich.

Re-installed the carbs and did some testing.

I took the return lines off and used clear line ran back into the tank. Both lines filled the same and at the same speed.

Tried turning the low speed screw in all the way on the mag side again and then cracked it open. I managed to get to 3/4 before it started dropping in idle. I'm thinking it might work a bit better now.
 
Had it out today. It's... better I guess.

top end is still great but max rpm's are 7010 and it seems to hold well without any bogging down.

Mid range still sucks but not as much. I have to use the low speed screws to help and I've found a compromise that seems to fix the mid range a bit.

It still 4 strokes at 3-4500 but its not as bad now. I can hold an rpm and I can transition from on and off the raves but its not as smooth as it should be.

Good news is that I have the low speed screw open and its not killing the engine like it was doing.

I tried holding 4200 which is where it acts up the most and after 2 minutes of that I did a plug chop. Both plugs are the same and both are tan. Maybe two minutes wasn't enough time. or maybe there is something else going on somewhere that I haven't found.


Something new though is that now when it idles in the water its at 1500 and out of the water its still at 1500.
Also now its not a hit the button and start ski. It cranks for a second and burbles to life.


The pop off is now at 38 psi on both. Before when I was playing with it, I had the pop off at 43 or so and the low end throttle response was far more crisp and instantaneous. Now its slightly slower to respond. As in I have to give just a bit more throttle to get the same response.



No matter what, the low end is rich. Going to try the 67.5's


How would this thing act if the gasket between the mag casing and the engine wasn't sealing perfectly ? Would that feel like a constant miss ?
 
Air leak? That would cause a lean miss most likely. Probably tend to fall on it's face and you'd have trouble getting idle mixture rich enough. These motors can run away on the trailer if idle mix is too lean, especially I think if compression is higher than normal it will be more prone to auto-ignition.

A cylinder misfire might cause in and out of water idle speed to be nearly the same. To determine which, feel if the casting is cold at the exhaust port area.

A lower pop pressure will allow more fuel down low but will lose effect with additional throttle position. What is pop spec for that ski, 38psi? Ideally the idle mix screw should be near factory spec and if not then maybe increase pop with next larger spring (this is what I'd try if idle mix screws weren't near factory spec).

Tan plugs means they're not loading up with fuel carbon or oil film they should be darker eventually (sorta depends on the oil a little but API-TC package causes the brownish color), the plug electrodes are hot enough to self-clean.

For mid rang I agree with going smaller on the pilot (assuming this is 4-stroking caused by too much fuel)

Ever seen a fouled plug insulator get washed to a lighter color by the fuel? This happens frequently, suspect the unusually light colored plug first. Agree 2 minutes might not be long enough to see carbon growth although a plug that's not firing might be washed clean by fuel.

A large percentage of the fuel you ski consumes is delivered via the transition ports and idle circuit (I bet near 50%). And, since you're turning >7kRPM WOT then for the maiden voyage if I installed a smaller pilot jet I'd probably open the HS screws another 1/8 at least, so the top doesn't go too lean It's easy to readjust HS if RPM's drop off too much, from the extra fuel.
 
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Also I've noticed two problems with my carbs.

1 Its impossible to set pop off according to the Mikuni chart because the carb body is worn.

I don't agree. Only if the spring perch is worn, which I highly doubt is possible.

2. Apparently these carbs will have problems as they age because when the butterfly is wide open it moves up and down enough to mash the top and bottom of it.
When the butterfly is closed, you can see a gap on top and bottom that would lean out the low speed mixture and that would require more fuel to tune it and then it would be too rich.

This kind of wear can force you to adjust idle mixture to the rich side but will not impact off idle (aside from briefly clearing the slug of fuel built up in the crankcase during rich idling).

If you didn't have an accelerator pump, the idle mixture would need to be slightly richer in order to store up the accelerator shot inside the crankcase during idle. Adding an accelerator pump allows seadoo to improve emissions by running smaller pilot jets and a slightly leaner idle mixture.
 
[video=youtube;V6kjnpPvCXo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6kjnpPvCXo&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 
[video=youtube;qjcIXO2hSvA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjcIXO2hSvA&feature=youtu.be[/video]

In this video I'm starting at idle and very slowly approaching 1/3 throttle.

If I let it get to 4500 the raves open and it takes off great.
 
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It could be because I just uploaded them. I'll make them public. Should be available now.
 
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A lower pop pressure will allow more fuel down low but will lose effect with additional throttle position. What is pop spec for that ski, 38psi? Ideally the idle mix screw should be near factory spec and if not then maybe increase pop with next larger spring (this is what I'd try if idle mix screws weren't near factory spec).

I actually don't know what the spec is. Its not in the manual. 38 is something I aimed for because the stock spring is black and stock needle is 1.5mm. So I should be aiming for 38... But besides that I've been using the specs for an XP.


Two things just crossed my mind.

1 since the compression is higher, should I up to octane from 87 to 89 or 91 ? as in: could it be pre-ignition? The sound is kind of tingy :P

2. would the higher compression create a strongre negative pressure requiring smaller pilot jets ?
 
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Right, I don't know what the pop spec for that motor is either but no doubt it's not 23-43psi, or whatever useless value might be posted somewhere. I could hit that range with several springs, thus that's a useless spec. IMO a useful range should not be so wide, it shouldn't be more than a few psi b/c bending the arm is a micro-adjustment for carb matching (pto/mag)

Question is, which spring is the correct one for your application and did your carb come from the factory with a spacer (some did). I don't know the answer but here's how I would approach this:

Assuming nothing's wrong such as a leaking metering valve (caused by burr on seat torn/worn needle tip, leaking seat o-ring, mangled metering arm, correct diaphragm, bla,bla, etc.)....

If you have to close the idle mix screws anything less than 1 turn in order to get a reasonable idle mixture then it's probably b/c the pop pressure is too low. I like to see ~1.5 turns from open ideally. A higher pop pressure will require more turns open on the idle mix screws and lower pop pressure will allow more fuel thus smaller mix screw adjustment is necessary.

So think of the idle mix screw and pop pressure as a means to fine tune fuel mixture at the very low end. The only mechanism we have for fine tuning idle mixture is the idle mixture screw and the course adjustment for that is pop pressure. So if you find the idle mix screw must be turned in less than one turn then IMO the pop pressure is too low.

Also, if you discover one idle mix screw must be at a substantially different position than the other, that needs to be investigated b/c when this happens it suggests the two carbs aren't fueling the same.

So lets say you settled on both idle mix screws at 3/4 turn for an idle that is steady and doesn't load up the crankcase with fuel and both carbs popped at the same pressure (+/-1psi), then I would suggest trying the next larger pop spring. Hopefully this will shift your idle mix screw happy spot to around 1.5 turns.

I also think you can change the low speed jet at the same time b/c the low speed jet orifice should not have any effect on idle mixture.
 
I actually don't know what the spec is. Its not in the manual. 38 is something I aimed for because the stock spring is black and stock needle is 1.5mm. So I should be aiming for 38... But besides that I've been using the specs for an XP.


Two things just crossed my mind.

1 since the compression is higher, should I up to octane from 87 to 89 or 91 ? as in: could it be pre-ignition? The sound is kind of tingy :P

2. would the higher compression create a strongre negative pressure requiring smaller pilot jets ?

Detonation occurs when the fuel charge stops burning prematurely. Lower octane fuels burn faster thus one way of avoiding detonation is by increasing octane. Another way of avoiding detonation is by increasing the fuel/air ratio to the point all the fuel cannot burn. Peak pressure should occur after TDC. Cold air can increase the chances of detonation b/c air density changes air/fuel ratio. A thermally hot chamber can also cause the fuel to burn faster, adjusting compression ratio and combustion chamber shape can also be manipulated to avoid detonation.

If the fuel charge burns too quickly, it may be necessary to ignite the charge later in the compression stroke.

But I doubt detonation is occurring at low speeds, especially if you are experiencing rich 4-stroking. I would be more concerned with detonation at WOT. A 2-stroke nearing detonation will begin to run like a bat out of hell just before it seizes, so if there's any question about top end detonation you can add more fuel using the HS mix screws. If you were to play with HS mix and begin bumping into the rev limit then I'd say it's probably too lean and you should add more fuel. If you weren't able to hit rev limit it's still possible it's too lean so in that case find max RPM and then add enough fuel to drop WOT RPM by 50RPM then you should be safe from detonation (at least you know it's not as lean as it would've been).

Basically, add fuel if you suspect detonation is occurring and try to achieve that cardboard insulator color. This color comes from the oil film, not carbon from the fuel. Carbon from the fuel will be black.

Keep in mind, if there's way too much fuel somewhere in the throttle, the brown oil film can actually be washed away from the insulators (similar to washing the plugs with brake or carb cleaner solvent but tons of fuel can be even more effective).

So if you're pig rich and heavily 4-stroking, then it's possible your plug insulators are being washed clean by the excess fuel. Also, oiling will be negatively affected by excess fuel.

I think it's okay to adjust low speed mixture (via jet orifice) till you reach a point where a lean hesitation occurs then richen it up from there. The reason I think this approach is okay is b/c the engine isn't making a lot of heat and the oil film is unlikely to fail under these conditions.

I like to hear a hint of 4-stroking during mid speed, this tells me there's plenty of fuel there for when I come off WOT with a hot piston a lean seize is less likely. I don't want constant 4-stroking in mid range though, too much fuel can wash the oil film off the cylinder walls.

So it's hard to know if you're experiencing detonation but if you are it's most likely to occur at WOT. Your piston gains a lot of heat at WOT, so way too much fuel in mid range could wash the oil film off the cylinder and cause a momentary seizure when coming off WOT. One warning sign of too lean HS is the WOT RPM tends to decay but in that case there's no doubt the piston has overheated. If there's any question then adding fuel (enough to drop WOT by 50RPM) with the HS adjuster can help avoid WOT detonation.

So what WOT RPM is enough? The higher it is, the more chance of reaching the danger zone. If you can gain WOT RPM by adding HS fuel then it's definitely too lean, adding HS fuel should always drop WOT RPM.

Preignition is combustion that occurs before the ignition spark occurs, such as immediately after the exhaust port closes, and this can happen if the plug electrodes are overheating. Preignition occurs while the piston is still on the compression stroke but now it's compressing an expanding charge of gases. There is no rapid pressure spike to resonate the block as in detonation, the pressure builds to an abnormally high level as the piston is compressing the expanding gas charge and the piston breaks due to intense pressure.

So have a look at your plugs to see if the electrodes are melting, this tells you you are nearing electrode temps that may cause preignition to occur.
 
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Cool. At the moment I'm topping out at 7010 and I'll try opening up the HS all the way to 1/4 turn to see if it drastically drops the top end Just to be sure. The most I've ever hit was 7100 and that was last year. It seems to stop at 6950 and slowly creap up to 7010 over 10 seconds.

Just finished installing some 67.5 pilots to see what happens. Now I'm just waiting to get to the lake.

The water regulator seemed to leak a bit so I rebuilt it. Inside I found a pinhole in the diaphram and the, the lower ring was rusted off allowing the diaphram to leak even more.
The cap was set at 2 turns out, the manual says its supposed to be 3 turns. What is it supposed to be ?
 
Cool. At the moment I'm topping out at 7010 and I'll try opening up the HS all the way to 1/4 turn to see if it drastically drops the top end Just to be sure. The most I've ever hit was 7100 and that was last year. It seems to stop at 6950 and slowly creap up to 7010 over 10 seconds.

Just finished installing some 67.5 pilots to see what happens. Now I'm just waiting to get to the lake.

The water regulator seemed to leak a bit so I rebuilt it. Inside I found a pinhole in the diaphram and the, the lower ring was rusted off allowing the diaphram to leak even more.
The cap was set at 2 turns out, the manual says its supposed to be 3 turns. What is it supposed to be ?
You were able to find in your manual how many turns the water regulator was out? Only thing I found was not to touch it.....it was set from the factory. I haven't a clue if it was messed with previously. I do know my ski was setup for racing at one point. I'm venturing to guess the WR was futzed with and not set to stock....but I haven't a clue what stock is supposed to be. So interested to hear this one. Although I'm not 100% certain I'm clear on how the WR has anything to do with how it runs.
 
You were able to find in your manual how many turns the water regulator was out? Only thing I found was not to touch it.....it was set from the factory. I haven't a clue if it was messed with previously. I do know my ski was setup for racing at one point. I'm venturing to guess the WR was futzed with and not set to stock....but I haven't a clue what stock is supposed to be. So interested to hear this one. Although I'm not 100% certain I'm clear on how the WR has anything to do with how it runs.

Yeah it was in the 96 manual. Said from all the way in, back out 3 turns which ends up almost flush.

I searched every manual from that year up and haven't found it in those yet. Would be nice to know what it actually does too. I mean, would all the way in mean 100 rpm loss on top end only or does it affect other parts of the throttle range. Hard to say how to adjust to get what ever result.
 
I need to eliminate that rusty clamp from my WW too, thanks for the reminder. I guess if you turned the adjuster inward the water to the cone would not be reduced by waterbox pressure as easily, so there would be more water flowing to the cone vs the same pressure in the waterbox.

Never heard of anyone optimizing that, wonder if it might have some kind of knee point or something? I don't plan on messing with it though, just to eliminate the rusty clamp by replacing it with a tie-wrap.
 
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