TOPS Valve malfunction - can I just gut it?

[IDoSeaDoo]

Hey guys, so I finally got my Challenger wet this weekend :hurray: Everything but the steering and the TOPS valve worked great. The steering cable has already been fixed, but I'm debating on what to do about the TOPS valve.

I noticed this from the large pressure building up in the crank case and blowing oil out of the valve cover. Pulling out the dipstick blows off a bunch of oily air. My whole engine bay is disgusting with it, I'll have to de-grease EVERYTHING here shortly.

I have confirmed that the TOPS mercury switch has continuity, so that's good. Now when I put the key on the DESS, the tops doesn't click like it should. Instead it makes this weak whiny vibration noise, like it's getting low voltage. I think maybe it's a bad solenoid, as I tested the plug, and it's getting 12v with the key on.

My understanding is that this valve is only to mitigate oil flowing into the wrong places when A BOAT TIPS OVER. Well, I figure if this boat tips over, I'll have much bigger problems and will likely need a salvage crew to pick it off the bottom of the lake. I read a post where one guy just gutted his TOPS valve. He took the plungers off of the stem and bypassed it entirely.

Are there any negative effects of doing so? Does the tops valve ever need to stay closed during normal operation?

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

So I did a little more troubleshooting: Tested voltage at connector with dess on, engine off: 12.4V. Tested resistance of valve solonoid: 2.0ohms. Applied battery voltage directly to solenoid, heard a sharp and solid clunk. Valve actuates just fine with direct current. Plugged the connector on with dess key on, and valve just makes a humming noise. If I leave it plugged in and connect the key, I THINK I hear a clunk, but not sure. I approached the valve, and it wasn't humming. I unplugged it, and heard it clunk (release). Put the plug back on and get the humming.

Testing voltage while it's humming was strange. If I clip the neg lead of the V-meter to ground and poke into the right wire, I get about 9V. If I clip the pos to + and poke the other wire with the negative probe, I only get about 3v. I checked all the grounds and fuses on the MPEM, all seem good....

 

[devonte007]

Just checked out your original boat build thread, really cool to see the video of your maiden voyage. Congratulations! Understandable that there are still some bugs to work out...

Anyway, with regard to your TOPS valve, yes you can bypass it by removing the 2 plungers. I did this to mine last year and never had a problem. Like you mentioned, the only reason for this valve is to prevent oil leaking out if the engine tips over. In a PWC, it is reasonable this may happen. In a boat if it tips over you got much bigger problems. In fact, in the later model boat engines Seadoo deleted the TOPS altogether; it's only in the skis now.

To remove the plungers, just take off the valve assembly and remove the c-clips holding the plungers on then reinstall.

If you want some additional information about the TOPS see this thread: http://www.seadooforum.com/showthread.php?70280-Pressure-Behind-Oil-Cap-Oil-Leak

There are a few links with really in depth information about how the whole TOPS system works. If the links to the PDF files do not work, let me know and I can share the files with you.

When the tops valve is first activated (putting lanyard on) it is energized with high voltage to get it moving. Think it is 9v, then after a short time the computer pulses a lower (maybe 3v) voltage just to keep it open since the constant higher voltage would overheat the solenoid.

My problem was an intermittent check engine light after the boat was running for some time. Since I did not have a Candoo, I suspected it had something to do with crank case pressure and maybe the tops system. I replaced the OPS (crank case pressure not hydraulic oil pressure sensor) and also decided to take the plungers off the TOPS valve. Never had a check engine light after that. Not sure what actual procedure fixed it, but I am happy.

Hope this helps!

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Thanks. Yea, there are some gremlins to work out and little things to finish: bilge mounting, cooling system finalization etc.
I think I'm going to just gut it. That way, I'm not reliant on another oil pressure switch maintaining good operation. And I don't have to buy another Oil Switch. I might even pull the whole TOPS valve off, cap the hole and sell it. People put resisters in there to simulate the valve and save on a little weight.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Just looked up the impeller pitch on my boat: it's a 13/23! Seems rather tall. Does anyone know what the nozzle diameter they use on the newer speedsters? I need to find some info on the pitch and nozzle diameters of those boats, as that is what I'm closest to. People say they really like the Solas Concord 14/19 for the big new challengers, but those are MASSIVE compared to my little boat.

 

[pwgsx]

I had the same issue on my speedster 200. Ended up remove the 2 discs on the plunger so it always vented. Problem solved and no more mess.

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Ok, so I completely removed my TOPS valve and I'm still building up a ton of pressure in my crank case. It's again pushing oil out of my (new) valve cover and even set off the CEL! I have an adapter for the big 1" PCV pipe coming off the front. It goes to a conversion fitting and gets reduced to a 1/4" hose. This plugs into a barb on the intake and the fumes get burned up in the intake, just like it was originally designed. However, originally, that pipe was the 1" diameter all the way. Now, it has to make a much further run, and I had all these parts already, so 1/4" it was. Weird thing is, it sometimes runs fine, sometimes builds pressure.

At times, I can take the tip of that hose and feel a hot gas and some smoke coming out of it. Other times, it feels plugged or something. How could this be? Is there anything else controlling how the crank case is ventilated?

 

[IDoSeaDoo]

Don't you hate threads without a resolution? I do, so here's the conclusion to this one. The problem here arose from teh fact that this is a totally custom boat, and I had no idea how much blow-by flow there was during normal operating conditions. The 3/4" crank ventilation outlet should have been a dead giveaway. The 3/4 to 1/4 inch reducer was my culprit. I made a homemade manometer using some clear tygon line I had and filled with water to see when the pressure starts to build in the crank chamber. There are no pressure gauges sensitive enough to detect slight pressure changes, and the ones that can are hugely expensive. The manometer, I plugged onto the oil dip stick tube.

Anyway, I ran the engine with the reducer and watched the pressure rise at over 3k rpm. Then I unplugged it, and couldn't make the pressure rise even if I bounced the engine off the stutter box. Then I experimented with what else I had at my disposal. I tried a 3/4" to 1/2" reducer, and again, no pressure changes. I then ran this to a modified ebay oil catch can, and to a 1/2" barb on my intake, where the old 1/4" one was. Had to bore it out and JB Weld the new barb in place.
Boat runs great, and no more pressure build up. Still running no TOPS valve, and I'm okay with that. It's an extra point of failure, and I'm not planning that this boat ever tip over. If it does, it'll probably sink and I'll have to rebuild the motor anyway. I did leave the pressure switch in place though, so as to warn me if I ever do enounter a pressure problem in the future. As it is now, I don't think that will ever happen. So there you have it. The end of my crank case overpressure problems.